From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (cthulhu.engr.sgi.com [192.26.80.2]) by neteng.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id CAA74392 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 02:41:57 -0800 (PST) Return-Path: Received: (from majordomo-owner@localhost) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) id CAA66702 for linux-list; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 02:41:04 -0800 (PST) mail_from (owner-linux@relay.engr.sgi.com) Received: from oz.engr.sgi.com (oz.engr.sgi.com [150.166.42.13]) by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id CAA90146; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 02:41:00 -0800 (PST) mail_from (ariel@oz.engr.sgi.com) Received: (from ariel@localhost) by oz.engr.sgi.com (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) id CAA33736; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 02:40:52 -0800 (PST) From: ariel@oz.engr.sgi.com (Ariel Faigon) Message-Id: <199901181040.CAA33736@oz.engr.sgi.com> Subject: Re: linus.linux.sgi.com To: davem@dm.cobaltmicro.com (David S. Miller) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 02:40:52 -0800 (PST) Cc: ralf@uni-koblenz.de, ariel@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com, linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com, adevries@engsoc.carleton.ca, richard@infopact.nl In-Reply-To: <199901160321.TAA11493@dm.cobaltmicro.com> from "David S. Miller" at Jan 15, 99 07:21:36 pm Reply-To: ariel@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (Ariel Faigon) Organization: Silicon Graphics Inc. X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com Precedence: bulk David, I delayed a lot reponding to this email and I would have much preferred to talk to you about all this over lunch rather than starting a mostly off-topic flame war on this list. But since you've made your concerns public I just have to clarify some misunderstandings before this gets out of control. Regarding Sun: Sun is clearly very worried about the recent Visual Workstations from SGI. Their web site speaks volumes about how worried they are. In fact, for two years, I haven't heard Sun so much preoccupied with SGI as I've seen it last week. The binary compatibility FUD is ironic considering that they have broken binary compatibility as well as source compatibility so many times in their history (m68k -> SPARC SPARC - x86, SunOs -> Solaris) believe me I know since I've been a Sun customer and an ISV. Not to mention their 64-bit story which has been "in the making" for about 4 years now since we had it in IRIX (including full binary support of both 32-bit and 64-bit apps on the same machine). Enough about Sun, OK. The Unix story of the new workstations will be out soon. All I would ask is a bit of patience :-). The MIPS announcement seems to be widely misunderstood as well As you know, SGI divested of the _embedded_ part of MIPS last year. It was an excellent decision considering the 15% of the divested company (previously an internal, pretty "invisible" SGI asset) now has a market cap or $1.2 billion (that's almost _half_ of the SGI market cap!) while SGI is still holding 85% of the MIPS shares (worth about 3 times SGI itself...) The MIPS embedded market is very different than the computer systems market and while SGI is still developing future MIPS high-end processors (the R12K, and the R14K), the standalone MIPS company is focusing on Windows-CE, consumer electronics, set top boxes, and the Nintendos' Sony PlayStations of the world. The decision to divest of the remaining 85% of MIPS is explained in the proxy for those interested in the nitty gritty, but what it means basically is that SGI can use the money for stuff that is more aligned with its core businesses, while MIPS will be less tied by alien interests, to better pursue its low-end markets. Lastly, you express the opinion that holding off good announcements for "the right time" is not a good idea, and here (surprise!) I have to fully agree with you. So to your question "is anyone listening" - you betcha. Just wait till I'm the CEO :-) So, are we meeting for lunch this week ? -- Peace, Ariel : : From: ralf@uni-koblenz.de : Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 22:59:18 +0100 : : Seconded. SGI (and actually the whole industry) is _W_A_Y_ more : OSS friendly than /. rumors say. : :Although I am a supporter of SGI and I understand their friendlyness :to the community, I do have to state that the rumors and feelings are :unsurprising given that: : :1) SGI has no UNIX story (yet) on their new hardware. :2) SGI has no binary compatability story on the new hardware for : customers who have made an investment in their MIPS line. : (Sun will be acquiring what SGI has (ability to execute x86 : binaries) in the very near future in their Sparc processors, : without screwing their customers over the way SGI is at the : moment... I can't say how they'll do it, but all I can say is : that they are doing it the right way) : :And todays announcement of how much of their MIPS investment stake :they are getting rid of, will only amplify how people feel about the :above. : :So if SGI has some exciting news for us OSS people in the pipeline, :and they are just holding off for "the right time", I think this is a :miscalculated delay and will hurt them tremendously. The sooner the :better, is anyone listening? : :Later, :David S. Miller :davem@dm.cobaltmicro.com : From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: From: ariel@oz.engr.sgi.com (Ariel Faigon) Message-ID: <199901181040.CAA33736@oz.engr.sgi.com> Subject: Re: linus.linux.sgi.com Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 02:40:52 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <199901160321.TAA11493@dm.cobaltmicro.com> from "David S. Miller" at Jan 15, 99 07:21:36 pm Reply-To: ariel@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com (Ariel Faigon) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com To: "David S. Miller" Cc: ralf@uni-koblenz.de, ariel@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com, linux@cthulhu.engr.sgi.com, adevries@engsoc.carleton.ca, richard@infopact.nl Message-ID: <19990118104052.23M06lWIhc3mndTLoZm2q1Tzyjxh_xj_FJk4VxQuOwE@z> David, I delayed a lot reponding to this email and I would have much preferred to talk to you about all this over lunch rather than starting a mostly off-topic flame war on this list. But since you've made your concerns public I just have to clarify some misunderstandings before this gets out of control. Regarding Sun: Sun is clearly very worried about the recent Visual Workstations from SGI. Their web site speaks volumes about how worried they are. In fact, for two years, I haven't heard Sun so much preoccupied with SGI as I've seen it last week. The binary compatibility FUD is ironic considering that they have broken binary compatibility as well as source compatibility so many times in their history (m68k -> SPARC SPARC - x86, SunOs -> Solaris) believe me I know since I've been a Sun customer and an ISV. Not to mention their 64-bit story which has been "in the making" for about 4 years now since we had it in IRIX (including full binary support of both 32-bit and 64-bit apps on the same machine). Enough about Sun, OK. The Unix story of the new workstations will be out soon. All I would ask is a bit of patience :-). The MIPS announcement seems to be widely misunderstood as well As you know, SGI divested of the _embedded_ part of MIPS last year. It was an excellent decision considering the 15% of the divested company (previously an internal, pretty "invisible" SGI asset) now has a market cap or $1.2 billion (that's almost _half_ of the SGI market cap!) while SGI is still holding 85% of the MIPS shares (worth about 3 times SGI itself...) The MIPS embedded market is very different than the computer systems market and while SGI is still developing future MIPS high-end processors (the R12K, and the R14K), the standalone MIPS company is focusing on Windows-CE, consumer electronics, set top boxes, and the Nintendos' Sony PlayStations of the world. The decision to divest of the remaining 85% of MIPS is explained in the proxy for those interested in the nitty gritty, but what it means basically is that SGI can use the money for stuff that is more aligned with its core businesses, while MIPS will be less tied by alien interests, to better pursue its low-end markets. Lastly, you express the opinion that holding off good announcements for "the right time" is not a good idea, and here (surprise!) I have to fully agree with you. So to your question "is anyone listening" - you betcha. Just wait till I'm the CEO :-) So, are we meeting for lunch this week ? -- Peace, Ariel : : From: ralf@uni-koblenz.de : Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 22:59:18 +0100 : : Seconded. SGI (and actually the whole industry) is _W_A_Y_ more : OSS friendly than /. rumors say. : :Although I am a supporter of SGI and I understand their friendlyness :to the community, I do have to state that the rumors and feelings are :unsurprising given that: : :1) SGI has no UNIX story (yet) on their new hardware. :2) SGI has no binary compatability story on the new hardware for : customers who have made an investment in their MIPS line. : (Sun will be acquiring what SGI has (ability to execute x86 : binaries) in the very near future in their Sparc processors, : without screwing their customers over the way SGI is at the : moment... I can't say how they'll do it, but all I can say is : that they are doing it the right way) : :And todays announcement of how much of their MIPS investment stake :they are getting rid of, will only amplify how people feel about the :above. : :So if SGI has some exciting news for us OSS people in the pipeline, :and they are just holding off for "the right time", I think this is a :miscalculated delay and will hurt them tremendously. The sooner the :better, is anyone listening? : :Later, :David S. Miller :davem@dm.cobaltmicro.com :