Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4

[Tom Vier <tmv@comcast.net>]

On Mon, Aug 30, 2004 at 09:08:07PM -0700, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> > What about microkernels? They do tcp in userspace.
> 
> No they don't. They do TCP in a separate address space from user space, 
> that just also happens to be separate from the "microkernel address 
> space".

Well, I'd call that userspace (if it has a pid and it's own addr space, like
every other proc).

> So a microkernel will have _more_ address spaces, and they won't be "user
> space". They'll be "server deamon space" or something. Now, that's also
> why they tend to have performance problems - because you need to copy the
> data between different address spaces, and switch the CPU context etc
> around.

Just out of curiousity, what do you think of L4? I don't remember the
numbers, but it wasn't much slower than linux (iirc), even on x86. I think
k42 has msg passing close to the speed of a syscall. (Bulk data could use
shared mem, maybe.)

Anyway, it would be neat to have a tcp/ip daemon. You could run experimental
code w/o fear of it clobbering other things. Somethings, of course, a
microkernel can't help (if the rootfs's fs daemon dies, you're screwed). A
little bit more containment from bad kernel code would be nice.

(BTW, for those who don't know, mach optimized away msg passing and used a
single addr space, once code was "trusted". You could choose speed over
protection. That wasn't a hard choice since Mach msg passing sucks. Mach
gave microkernels a bad name.)

> Not user space. They may be "ring 3" from a CPU standpoint, but they 
> aren't user space from a _user_ standpoint - it's still very much a 
> separate address space, with domain protection.

How are they different from regular user procs, other then being trusted to
manage certain resources?
> In short: you _need_ to have a separate address space (either kernel, or
> "TCP server" or whatever) if you want to have reliable, secure and
> generally usable TCP.

Exokernels are another topic. 8)

> > As long as a trusted process keeps data such as free ports, what's the
> > problem?
> 
> None - because it's not user space any more. 

Yes it is, it's a user process.

> Well, performance might still suck, of course. And it does. 

-- 
Tom Vier <tmv@comcast.net>
DSA Key ID 0x15741ECE