wiki.linux-nfs.org

wiki.linux-nfs.org

[Bernd Schubert]

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Hi,

I would like to add the complete FAQ on http://nfs.sourceforge.net to the 
wiki.linux-nfs.org site. Does somebody has objections against that? This  
will make it much easier to add new chapters like NFS-failover and others.

In order to do that, I think it would be best to modify the frontpage of the 
Wiki to have in the general field an entry "End user documentation for NFSv3" 
and rename the present "End user documentation" to "End user documentation 
for NFSv4". Unfortunately even when I'm logged in, I can't modify the 
frontpage. Could somebody with the proper permissions do that?

Thanks,
	Bernd

-- 
Bernd Schubert
PCI / Theoretische Chemie
Universität Heidelberg
INF 229
69120 Heidelberg


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Re: wiki.linux-nfs.org

[Bryce Harrington]

On Sat, Feb 25, 2006 at 06:10:45PM +0100, Bernd Schubert wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I would like to add the complete FAQ on http://nfs.sourceforge.net to the 
> wiki.linux-nfs.org site. Does somebody has objections against that? This  
> will make it much easier to add new chapters like NFS-failover and others.
> 
> In order to do that, I think it would be best to modify the frontpage of the 
> Wiki to have in the general field an entry "End user documentation for NFSv3" 
> and rename the present "End user documentation" to "End user documentation 
> for NFSv4". Unfortunately even when I'm logged in, I can't modify the 
> frontpage. Could somebody with the proper permissions do that?

Hi Bernd,

Sounds like great ideas.  I've unlocked the page so you should not have
trouble editing it.  We'd locked it because of spam issues, so please
keep an eye on the change log for weird edits.  When you're finished, or
if the spam becomes a significant problem let me know and I'll relock
it.

Bryce

Re: wiki.linux-nfs.org

[Bernd Schubert]

On Saturday 25 February 2006 18:24, Bryce Harrington wrote:
> On Sat, Feb 25, 2006 at 06:10:45PM +0100, Bernd Schubert wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > I would like to add the complete FAQ on http://nfs.sourceforge.net to t=
he
> > wiki.linux-nfs.org site. Does somebody has objections against that? This
> > will make it much easier to add new chapters like NFS-failover and
> > others.
> >
> > In order to do that, I think it would be best to modify the frontpage of
> > the Wiki to have in the general field an entry "End user documentation
> > for NFSv3" and rename the present "End user documentation" to "End user
> > documentation for NFSv4". Unfortunately even when I'm logged in, I can't
> > modify the frontpage. Could somebody with the proper permissions do tha=
t?
>
> Hi Bernd,
>
> Sounds like great ideas.  I've unlocked the page so you should not have
> trouble editing it.  We'd locked it because of spam issues, so please
> keep an eye on the change log for weird edits.  When you're finished, or
> if the spam becomes a significant problem let me know and I'll relock
> it.

Hello Bryce,

I just finished to the initial (automatic) transfer of the FAQ, there's sti=
ll=20
a lot to improve, but this will have to wait until tomorrow.=20
So you may lock the frontpage again.

Cheers,
	Bernd

PS: Sorry that I didn't create changelog entries for all pages, I just forg=
ot=20
it at the beginning.

=2D-=20
Bernd Schubert
PCI / Theoretische Chemie
Universit=E4t Heidelberg
INF 229
69120 Heidelberg

Re: wiki.linux-nfs.org

[Chuck Lever]

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Bernd Schubert wrote:
> I would like to add the complete FAQ on http://nfs.sourceforge.net to the 
> wiki.linux-nfs.org site. Does somebody has objections against that? This  
> will make it much easier to add new chapters like NFS-failover and others.

if i update the FAQ on sourceforge, how do you get the updates?  if you 
update your copy of the FAQ, how are the updates going to get back to 
the sourceforge copy?

by adding the FAQ to the wiki, are you proposing that it should be 
removed from sourceforge, and maintained by whomever wants to edit the 
wiki pages?  i'm not really comfortable with that.  the FAQ is very very 
carefully crafted and vetted so that it contains good information.

are you talking about both the FAQ and the How-To, or just one of them?

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Re: wiki.linux-nfs.org

[Bryce Harrington]

On Sat, Feb 25, 2006 at 06:57:53PM +0100, Bernd Schubert wrote:
> Hello Bryce,
> 
> I just finished to the initial (automatic) transfer of the FAQ, there's still 
> a lot to improve, but this will have to wait until tomorrow. 
> So you may lock the frontpage again.

Actually I'll just leave it unlocked for the time being.  
 
> Cheers,
> 	Bernd
> 
> PS: Sorry that I didn't create changelog entries for all pages, I just forgot 
> it at the beginning.

Don't worry about it, I rarely do the changelog entries either.  :-)

Bryce

Re: wiki.linux-nfs.org

[Bernd Schubert]

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On Saturday 25 February 2006 22:28, Chuck Lever wrote:
> Bernd Schubert wrote:
> > I would like to add the complete FAQ on http://nfs.sourceforge.net to the
> > wiki.linux-nfs.org site. Does somebody has objections against that? This
> > will make it much easier to add new chapters like NFS-failover and
> > others.
>
> if i update the FAQ on sourceforge, how do you get the updates?  if you
> update your copy of the FAQ, how are the updates going to get back to
> the sourceforge copy?

>
> by adding the FAQ to the wiki, are you proposing that it should be
> removed from sourceforge, and maintained by whomever wants to edit the

That was the idea, but thatswhy I also asked for objections.

> wiki pages?  i'm not really comfortable with that.  the FAQ is very very
> carefully crafted and vetted so that it contains good information.

Well, thats the general problem of a wiki. Usually it works, but sometimes 
there is vandalism. On the other hand, most pages of the NFSv4 stuff also can 
be edited by all. 
Maybe we should add a page where people wanting to modify the wiki can enter 
their username and email and Bryce can unlock them on request? (I hope this 
is possible with mediawiki, we unlock per user with moinmoin).

>
> are you talking about both the FAQ and the How-To, or just one of them?

Well, first the FAQ.

Cheers,
	Bernd

-- 
Bernd Schubert
PCI / Theoretische Chemie
Universität Heidelberg
INF 229
69120 Heidelberg


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Re: wiki.linux-nfs.org

[Bryce Harrington]

On Sun, Feb 26, 2006 at 02:54:47PM +0100, Bernd Schubert wrote:
> On Saturday 25 February 2006 22:28, Chuck Lever wrote:
> > wiki pages?  i'm not really comfortable with that.  the FAQ is very very
> > carefully crafted and vetted so that it contains good information.
> 
> Well, thats the general problem of a wiki. Usually it works, but sometimes 
> there is vandalism. On the other hand, most pages of the NFSv4 stuff also can 
> be edited by all. 
> Maybe we should add a page where people wanting to modify the wiki can enter 
> their username and email and Bryce can unlock them on request? (I hope this 
> is possible with mediawiki, we unlock per user with moinmoin).

Yes, it is possible to configure it this way.  However, the spam
measures I've turned on seem to be doing the job.

Regarding having the FAQ in wiki, I don't have a strong feeling; I've
seen it done effectively both ways.  Putting it in wiki does make it
easier for more people to contribute to it (at least in theory), but as
Chuck points out, having it published as a stand alone entity gives it
more credibility.

Perhaps a compromise might be to use the wiki as a "commentary on the
faq" rather than as the faq itself?  This would allow you to add
whatever notes you feel to be appropriate, and would benefit Chuck by
providing him with source material and feedback for future versions of
the FAQ?

In any case, however you guys resolve it, it's great seeing the wiki get
some use!  :-)

Bryce

Re: wiki.linux-nfs.org

[Bernd Schubert]

> Perhaps a compromise might be to use the wiki as a "commentary on the
> faq" rather than as the faq itself?  This would allow you to add
> whatever notes you feel to be appropriate, and would benefit Chuck by
> providing him with source material and feedback for future versions of
> the FAQ?

This is also fine. I think I will remove the FAQ this evening and add a=20
section about failover.


=2D-=20
Bernd Schubert
PCI / Theoretische Chemie
Universit=E4t Heidelberg
INF 229
69120 Heidelberg

Re: wiki.linux-nfs.org

[Chuck Lever]

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Bernd Schubert wrote:
>>by adding the FAQ to the wiki, are you proposing that it should be
>>removed from sourceforge, and maintained by whomever wants to edit the
> 
> 
> That was the idea, but thatswhy I also asked for objections.

you posted your question at 9am (EST) on a non-workday, then you waited 
less than an hour before proceeding with the transfer.  that's hardly 
"asking for objections."

also, why didn't you contact me about this first?  i am the FAQ 
maintainer, after all.  is there a problem you are trying to address? 
is there something missing in the FAQ?  have i been slacking?

>>wiki pages?  i'm not really comfortable with that.  the FAQ is very very
>>carefully crafted and vetted so that it contains good information.
> 
> 
> Well, thats the general problem of a wiki. Usually it works, but sometimes 
> there is vandalism. On the other hand, most pages of the NFSv4 stuff also can 
> be edited by all. 
> Maybe we should add a page where people wanting to modify the wiki can enter 
> their username and email and Bryce can unlock them on request? (I hope this 
> is possible with mediawiki, we unlock per user with moinmoin).

i think wikis are a great tool, but here's the problem.

if anyone (in the NFS community) can edit the FAQ, what stops people 
from adding erroneous advice, or even advice that opens a security hole 
or that could cause silent data corruption?

for example, what happens if someone comes along and sees the "async" 
export option on the server and says "oh wow!  i can make my server 10x 
faster with this!  i'm going to add something to the FAQ that encourages 
everyone to use the 'async' export option!"

or even worse, someone adds advice to export shares without root 
squashing because it makes accessing the data "so much easier", or 
misconfigure Kerberos, and on and on.

sure, you can back it out easily, because it's a wiki.  but this all 
depends on us knowing the NFS implementation well enough, testing the 
advice, and being on top of the changes so we can quickly remove advice 
that is destructive.

basically, people trust that this information won't screw them.  if we 
let anyone edit this page, it will become worthless information.  you 
don't see the Linux kernel developed this way, and for exactly the same 
reasons.

i don't deny that the FAQ and How-To could use some help.  but please, 
let's reasonably discuss why we want to do this first, and see if we can 
address those issues with what we have.

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Re: wiki.linux-nfs.org

[Bernd Schubert]

On Monday 27 February 2006 16:56, Chuck Lever wrote:
> Bernd Schubert wrote:
> >>by adding the FAQ to the wiki, are you proposing that it should be
> >>removed from sourceforge, and maintained by whomever wants to edit the
> >
> > That was the idea, but thatswhy I also asked for objections.
>
> you posted your question at 9am (EST) on a non-workday, then you waited

Well, I'm working too much nowadays. Almost have forgotten that weekends ar=
e=20
non-workdays ;)

> less than an hour before proceeding with the transfer.  that's hardly
> "asking for objections."

Sorry, the initial transfer was more or less just a test how well it works=
=20
automatically.

>
> also, why didn't you contact me about this first?  i am the FAQ
> maintainer, after all.  is there a problem you are trying to address?
> is there something missing in the FAQ?  have i been slacking?

Sorry, clearly my fault. I was really unpolite, please excuse me.

>
> >>wiki pages?  i'm not really comfortable with that.  the FAQ is very very
> >>carefully crafted and vetted so that it contains good information.
> >
> > Well, thats the general problem of a wiki. Usually it works, but
> > sometimes there is vandalism. On the other hand, most pages of the NFSv4
> > stuff also can be edited by all.
> > Maybe we should add a page where people wanting to modify the wiki can
> > enter their username and email and Bryce can unlock them on request? (I
> > hope this is possible with mediawiki, we unlock per user with moinmoin).
>
> i think wikis are a great tool, but here's the problem.
>
> if anyone (in the NFS community) can edit the FAQ, what stops people
> from adding erroneous advice, or even advice that opens a security hole
> or that could cause silent data corruption?
>
> for example, what happens if someone comes along and sees the "async"
> export option on the server and says "oh wow!  i can make my server 10x
> faster with this!  i'm going to add something to the FAQ that encourages
> everyone to use the 'async' export option!"
>
> or even worse, someone adds advice to export shares without root
> squashing because it makes accessing the data "so much easier", or
> misconfigure Kerberos, and on and on.
>
> sure, you can back it out easily, because it's a wiki.  but this all
> depends on us knowing the NFS implementation well enough, testing the
> advice, and being on top of the changes so we can quickly remove advice
> that is destructive.
>
> basically, people trust that this information won't screw them.  if we
> let anyone edit this page, it will become worthless information.  you
> don't see the Linux kernel developed this way, and for exactly the same
> reasons.
>
> i don't deny that the FAQ and How-To could use some help.  but please,
> let's reasonably discuss why we want to do this first, and see if we can
> address those issues with what we have.

Actually, I just wanted to add a how-to about high-availibility, moving a n=
fs=20
exported partition and more details about the fsid usage.
I have now removed the transferred FAQ, but I'm still planning to add some =
ha=20
stuff there. It only too late now (midnight).

What do you think about naming the section in the Wiki 'User FAQ' and then =
to=20
put a big disclaimer on that page, that shortly explains that this is not t=
he=20
official howto?


Sorry again,
	Bernd

=2D-=20
Bernd Schubert
PCI / Theoretische Chemie
Universit=E4t Heidelberg
INF 229
69120 Heidelberg

Re: wiki.linux-nfs.org

[Chuck Lever]

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Bernd Schubert wrote:
>>also, why didn't you contact me about this first?  i am the FAQ
>>maintainer, after all.  is there a problem you are trying to address?
>>is there something missing in the FAQ?  have i been slacking?
> 
> 
> Sorry, clearly my fault. I was really unpolite, please excuse me.

accepted, thanks.

> Actually, I just wanted to add a how-to about high-availibility, moving a nfs 
> exported partition and more details about the fsid usage.
> I have now removed the transferred FAQ, but I'm still planning to add some ha 
> stuff there. It only too late now (midnight).
> 
> What do you think about naming the section in the Wiki 'User FAQ' and then to 
> put a big disclaimer on that page, that shortly explains that this is not the 
> official howto?

those sound useful enough to add to the official FAQ and How-To.  i'm 
happy to work with you on the FAQ components, but we need to find one of 
the How-To maintainers to help with the other parts.

it might be useful to host "requests for enhancements to the FAQ and 
How-To" somewhere like on the wiki.  using the wiki to develop the 
contents of the FAQ and How-To, then copying them to the real documents 
when new entries have been reviewed, could be a good thing.

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