From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S1763631AbXGFTf6 (ORCPT ); Fri, 6 Jul 2007 15:35:58 -0400 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id S1761449AbXGFTfs (ORCPT ); Fri, 6 Jul 2007 15:35:48 -0400 Received: from agminet01.oracle.com ([141.146.126.228]:18251 "EHLO agminet01.oracle.com" rhost-flags-OK-OK-OK-OK) by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S1760222AbXGFTfq (ORCPT ); Fri, 6 Jul 2007 15:35:46 -0400 Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 12:35:14 -0700 From: Joel Becker To: Gerd Hoffmann Cc: Jeff Garzik , Christoph Hellwig , Karel Zak , List util-linux-ng , linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, linux-fsdevel@vger.kernel.org Subject: Re: [ANNOUNCE] util-linux-ng 2.13-rc1 Message-ID: <20070706193514.GO17650@tasint.org> Mail-Followup-To: Gerd Hoffmann , Jeff Garzik , Christoph Hellwig , Karel Zak , List util-linux-ng , linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, linux-fsdevel@vger.kernel.org References: <20070703221156.GY14825@petra.dvoda.cz> <20070704084211.GA19128@infradead.org> <468D78BE.4030902@garzik.org> <468E04D3.6080002@redhat.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <468E04D3.6080002@redhat.com> X-Burt-Line: Trees are cool. X-Red-Smith: Ninety feet between bases is perhaps as close as man has ever come to perfection. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAAAI= X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAAAI= X-Whitelist: TRUE X-Whitelist: TRUE Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org On Fri, Jul 06, 2007 at 11:01:07AM +0200, Gerd Hoffmann wrote: > And the 10% where it doesn't work it is a real pain to figure what goes > wrong due to the completely unreadable Makefiles generated by autotools. > After all they are not Makefiles, they are shellscripts embedded into > Makefiles. Do not mistake the use of autoconf with automake. automake generates the unreadable Makefiles. You can quite easily create a useful Makefile yourself and use autoconf to select installation locations, detect features of older/newer libcs, etc. See http://oss.oracle.com/projects/makebo/ for an example of a build system that doesn't use automake, but allows for autoconf to do build-time configuration (an example user of makebo is ocfs2-tools, see http://oss.oracle.com/projects/ocfs2-tools/src/trunk/). And if you think that all packages should Just Work on all Linuxen, with out any build-time detection, try determining the differing udev layouts of FC6, FC7, Debian, Ubuntu, SuSE9, SuSE10, etc. Or where manpages go. The %configure of RPM specfiles and the dh_installman of debian packages handle this for you...often because they can use expected behavior of your build system. What about futexes? Older systems don't have them. Gotta detect that. Joel -- "I'm drifting and drifting Just like a ship out on the sea. Cause I ain't got nobody, baby, In this world to care for me." Joel Becker Principal Software Developer Oracle E-mail: joel.becker@oracle.com Phone: (650) 506-8127 From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Joel Becker Subject: Re: [ANNOUNCE] util-linux-ng 2.13-rc1 Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 12:35:14 -0700 Message-ID: <20070706193514.GO17650@tasint.org> References: <20070703221156.GY14825@petra.dvoda.cz> <20070704084211.GA19128@infradead.org> <468D78BE.4030902@garzik.org> <468E04D3.6080002@redhat.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Cc: Jeff Garzik , Christoph Hellwig , Karel Zak , List util-linux-ng , linux-kernel-u79uwXL29TY76Z2rM5mHXA@public.gmane.org, linux-fsdevel-u79uwXL29TY76Z2rM5mHXA@public.gmane.org To: Gerd Hoffmann Return-path: Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <468E04D3.6080002-H+wXaHxf7aLQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> Sender: util-linux-ng-owner-u79uwXL29TY76Z2rM5mHXA@public.gmane.org List-Id: linux-fsdevel.vger.kernel.org On Fri, Jul 06, 2007 at 11:01:07AM +0200, Gerd Hoffmann wrote: > And the 10% where it doesn't work it is a real pain to figure what goes > wrong due to the completely unreadable Makefiles generated by autotools. > After all they are not Makefiles, they are shellscripts embedded into > Makefiles. Do not mistake the use of autoconf with automake. automake generates the unreadable Makefiles. You can quite easily create a useful Makefile yourself and use autoconf to select installation locations, detect features of older/newer libcs, etc. See http://oss.oracle.com/projects/makebo/ for an example of a build system that doesn't use automake, but allows for autoconf to do build-time configuration (an example user of makebo is ocfs2-tools, see http://oss.oracle.com/projects/ocfs2-tools/src/trunk/). And if you think that all packages should Just Work on all Linuxen, with out any build-time detection, try determining the differing udev layouts of FC6, FC7, Debian, Ubuntu, SuSE9, SuSE10, etc. Or where manpages go. The %configure of RPM specfiles and the dh_installman of debian packages handle this for you...often because they can use expected behavior of your build system. What about futexes? Older systems don't have them. Gotta detect that. Joel -- "I'm drifting and drifting Just like a ship out on the sea. Cause I ain't got nobody, baby, In this world to care for me." Joel Becker Principal Software Developer Oracle E-mail: joel.becker-QHcLZuEGTsvQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org Phone: (650) 506-8127