From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1LayVo-0005ML-4V for mharc-grub-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Feb 2009 15:31:48 -0500 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1LayVl-0005M5-Jw for grub-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Feb 2009 15:31:45 -0500 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1LayVj-0005Lt-4a for grub-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Feb 2009 15:31:44 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=47320 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1LayVj-0005Lq-0T for grub-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Feb 2009 15:31:43 -0500 Received: from aybabtu.com ([69.60.117.155]:47472) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1LayVi-0008VH-Ev for grub-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Feb 2009 15:31:42 -0500 Received: from [192.168.10.10] (helo=thorin) by aybabtu.com with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1LayP7-0000Dl-Dm for grub-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Feb 2009 21:24:53 +0100 Received: from rmh by thorin with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1LayVc-0004tk-Dj for grub-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 21 Feb 2009 21:31:36 +0100 Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 21:31:36 +0100 From: Robert Millan To: The development of GRUB 2 Message-ID: <20090221203136.GF18492@thorin> References: <200902200945.51426.michael@gorven.za.net> <20090221135142.GK16068@thorin> <200902211729.52450.michael@gorven.za.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200902211729.52450.michael@gorven.za.net> Organization: free as in freedom X-Message-Flag: Worried about Outlook viruses? Switch to Thunderbird! www.mozilla.com/thunderbird X-Debbugs-No-Ack: true User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. Subject: Re: A _good_ and valid use for TPM X-BeenThere: grub-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: The development of GRUB 2 List-Id: The development of GRUB 2 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 20:31:46 -0000 On Sat, Feb 21, 2009 at 05:29:34PM +0200, Michael Gorven wrote: > On Saturday 21 February 2009 15:51:42 Robert Millan wrote: > > On Fri, Feb 20, 2009 at 09:45:28AM +0200, Michael Gorven wrote: > > > TPM can be used for good or for bad, but this is the case for everything > > > involving cryptography. We don't refuse to use encryption algorithms > > > because they could be used for DRM, so why should we refuse to use TPM? > > > > I don't agree with this analogy. Unlike cryptography, TPMs have been > > designed from the ground up to serve an evil purpose. They *could* have > > designed them with good intent, for example either of these could apply: > > > > - Buyer gets a printed copy of the TPM's private key when they buy a > > board. > > > > - An override button that's physically accessible from the chip can be > > used to disable "hostile mode" and make the TPM sign everything. From > > that point physical access can be managed with traditional methods > > (e.g. locks). > > > > But they didn't. > > Just to clarify, are you objecting to the use of TPM on principle and because > you don't want to encourage use of it, or because you think this specific use > (trusted boot path) is dangerous? I can't reply to this question, because it's not just a specific use, it's part of the design, of its purpose. One of the design goals is remote attestation, which is a threat to our freedom and is unethical. If there was a device that behaves like a TPM except remote attestation is not possible (e.g. by one of the means described above), I wouldn't object to it, and I think the GNU project wouldn't either, but then referring to that as "TPM" is misleading. -- Robert Millan The DRM opt-in fallacy: "Your data belongs to us. We will decide when (and how) you may access your data; but nobody's threatening your freedom: we still allow you to remove your data and not access it at all."