Re: [virtio-dev] Re: [Qemu-devel] [v23 1/2] virtio-crypto: Add virtio crypto device specification

["Michael S. Tsirkin" <mst@redhat.com>]

On Fri, Mar 16, 2018 at 07:18:45PM +0100, Halil Pasic wrote:
> 
> 
> On 03/16/2018 05:27 PM, Michael S. Tsirkin wrote:
> > On Tue, Jan 09, 2018 at 06:05:41PM +0100, Halil Pasic wrote:
> >>> +\item[\field{max_cipher_key_len}] is the maximum length of cipher key supported by the device.
> >>
> >> I can't find what happens if this limit isn't honored by the driver. Moreover
> >> reading it is only SHOULD. Is it undefined behavior or should the device reject/fail
> >> such requests? I think in qemu implementation we fail the request.
> >>
> >> This question is only about niceness. We are already good enough, IMHO:
> >> since the implementer of the driver can't be sure what is going to happen
> >> if the driver disregards max_cipher_key_len it is already an implicit
> >> SHOULD.
> > 
> > I am not sure documenting undefined behaviour is always required.
> 
> I kind of agree. But I'm afraid I did not get through my point. It's
> about clarity. The driver supplying a cipher key larger that
> max_cipher_key_len isn't violating any driver normative statement.
> I find it strange make obtaining a piece of configuration a driver
> normative


> but have neither a driver normative that says the driver must
> (or should) operate according to the same (at least in certain)
> circumstances


I agree with that. I think it would be clearer to say
that driver must not (or should not?) submit longer requests
than to say that it should read this field.

> nor a device normative that implicitly educates the driver
> implementer what happens if the driver is acting stupid (see below).

About not saying what happens if driver does something stupid,
we generally don't.


> 
> > We certainly do not do this for all other devices> 
> 
> """
> 5.2.6.2 Device Requirements: Device Operation
> 
> A device MUST set the status byte to VIRTIO_BLK_S_IOERR for a write request if the VIRTIO_BLK_F_RO feature if offered, and MUST NOT write any data.
> """
> 
> I was under the impression, that we sometimes express what is naively
> a driver-requirement (e.g. thou shall not write to a read only
> device) as a device-requirement. This has benefits in my opinion:
> the driver implementer is educated about a certain behavior being a no-no
> and hopefully leading to sane error handling (with a compliant device
> sitting on the other side) --- instead of  offending drivers landing beyond
> the spec (in undefined behavior land) by violating a driver-normative.
> 
> > Reading a field being SHOULD seems reasonable: e.g.
> > driver might read it once and cache it in memory.
> 
> I don't quite understand. Let me quote the normative section
> 
> +\drivernormative{\subsubsection}{Device configuration layout}{Device Types / Crypto Device / Device configuration layout}
> +
> +\begin{itemize*}
> +\item The driver MUST read the \field{status} from the bottom bit of status to check whether the
> +    VIRTIO_CRYPTO_S_HW_READY is set, and the driver MUST reread it after device reset.
> +\item The driver MUST NOT transmit any requests to the device if the VIRTIO_CRYPTO_S_HW_READY is not set.
> +\item The driver MUST read \field{max_dataqueues} field to discover the number of data queues the device supports.
> 
> [..]
> 
> +\item The driver SHOULD read \field{max_cipher_key_len} to discover the maximum length of cipher key
> +    the device supports.
> 
> Does it mean it's OK for the driver (e.g. after a configuration change
> notification to use a stale) \field{max_cipher_key_len} ) as it is SHOULD read
> bit it's not OK to use a stale \field{max_dataqueues}?
> 
> AFAIU all configuration space stuff eligible for caching, but
> under certain circumstances the cache invalidates and a re-read
> is necessary.

So you are saying why aren't max_dataqueues and
max_cipher_key_len consistent?
It's a valid point.

> > 
> > Halil, could you try to split your comments between requirements
> > for more conformance clauses/clarifications as opposed to
> > defects where it's wrong and does not match actual or
> > expected behaviour?
> 
> Yes. I'm already trying to tag my comments. 'This question is only
>  about niceness. We are already good enough' was supposed to indicate
> that this one is not requirement.

to me most questions look like you have a rather specific wording in mind.
How about instead of asking questions you just propose a
specific fixed wording as your own patch?

That will make things converge faster.


> Do you mean putting these in separate emails?

That's up to you, wasn't very clear to me but maybe it's clear
enough to Mike.

> > 
> > I think spec is better off with some documentation for this
> > device than none at all like today.
> > 
> 
> 
> If the rest community says it's good enough, I won't fight against
> inclusion neither in the repo nor in the next Committee Specification.
> 
> I would %100 agree with you if this were normal documentation.
> The problem with standards is that both correctness and completeness
> are crucial. What is not part of the standard, is not part of the
> standard and period.

I disagree here.

Standards evolve too. A requirement to be 100% correct isn't realistic.

Whoever implements the spec will come back to us and say
"hey I did exactly as standard says and it does not work"
and then we'll either fix the standard or say
"too bad, fix the hypervisor" or say "we weren't clear,
hypervisors implemented spec correctly but we meant something else,
let's add a feature bit so future ones will get it right".


> Virtio is especially tricky as there is no versions of the standard.
> What once was a compliant device/driver must be kept compliant when
> we change the text. That is why this better something than nothing
> does not entirely work for me.
> 
> Regards,
> Halil

We can always add feature bits when we change behaviour in incompatible
ways.

-- 
MST

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