From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2604375963989790221==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Christoph Paasch To: mptcp at lists.01.org Subject: Re: [MPTCP] Call for ideas for a presentation about MPTCP Upstream project at NetDev 0x12 in July Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2018 09:18:42 -0700 Message-ID: <20180430161842.GM19260@MacBook-Pro-6.local> In-Reply-To: CAKuKrB=5BFLGfBAnznUEH9Jn_KU4waX7xEtoJEEzESCrNAR2zw@mail.gmail.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 569 --===============2604375963989790221== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 30/04/18 - 16:26:01, Matthieu Baerts wrote: > Hi Mat, Christoph, Peter, Ossama, > = > I will wait for ~10am your time before sending it to let you some times to > comment this if you want to do so. > = > Best regards, > Matthieu > = > On Sun, Apr 29, 2018 at 4:08 PM, Matthieu Baerts < > matthieu.baerts(a)tessares.net> wrote: > = > > Hi Mat, > > > > Thank you for your review and input! > > > > On Sat, Apr 28, 2018 at 2:44 AM, Mat Martineau > intel.com> wrote: > > > >> > >> Hi Matthieu - > >> > >> On Fri, 27 Apr 2018, Matthieu Baerts wrote: > >> > >> Hello, > >>> > >>> Following yesterday's discussion about NetDev 0x12, here is a > >>> proposition of mail to send to NetDev committee. I already put some > >>> comments. Note that I have followed the submission guidelines from: > >>> https://www.netdevconf.org/0x12/submit-proposal.html#proposals > >>> > >>> Please comment it before Monday morning. Sorry for the rush but the > >>> deadline is the 1st of May :) > >>> > >>> * Name(s) of the submitter(s): Christoph Paasch (Apple), Mat Martineau > >>>> > >>> (Intel), Peter Krystad (Intel), Ossama Othman (Intel) and myself, > >>> Matthieu Baerts (Tessares) > >>> > >>> I wrote down the names of people who participated in the discussion in > >>> the ML and during the weekly meetings. I can add more people if more = people > >>> would like to join the preparation and presentation of this tutorial. > >>> @Christoph, Mat, Peter, Ossama: can I write your names there? > >>> > >> > >> Ossama won't be able to attend. It looks like most sessions have 1 or 2 > >> presenters, so I don't know if 4 is too many. I'm sure they'll give us= some > >> feedback if they want to limit the number of presenters. > >> > > > > OK thank you! > > Yes indeed, I am sure they will say something if we are too many. > > > > * Title of the submission: MPTCP: from the basic to an upstreamable base > >>>> > >>> > >>> We certainly need a better title, please comment! > >>> > >> > >> "Multipath TCP: Present Use Cases and an Upstream Future" ? > >> > > > > I was trying to find something that catch the attention but it is maybe > > not needed for these kind of presentation. > > > > > * Label (one of moonshot, nuts'n bolts, hands-on): hands-on > >>> > >>> "hands-on" seems to be the correct one according to the Submission Ty= pes. > >>> https://www.netdevconf.org/0x12/submit-proposal.html#types > >>> > >> > >> It's a little bit of "nuts & bolts" too, but I agree that hands-on is = the > >> better match. > >> > > > > Thank you! > > > > * Submission type (one of talk, presentation, workshop): tutorial, > >>>> > >>> instructor-led sessions (minimum 1 hour long and not to exceed 1.5 > >>> hours. The instructor will go over the technology either through code > >>> review or execution and interact with the attendees.) > >>> > >>> I guess there is a typo here: presentation should be replaced by > >>> tutorial in the guidelines. > >>> > >>> Estimate of length of time for presentation: 1h > >>>> > >>> > >>> That's what we agreed yesterday but I can change. > >>> > >>> Affiliations of submitters (needed for conflict of interest check): > >>>> Apple, I will have to double-check on the affiliation part wrt to Apple. If I don't get a thumbs up, you can simply remove me from the list. Christoph > >>>> > >>> Intel, Tessares > >>> > >>> Description of proposal: > >>>> A project to add an implementation of the MultiPath TCP protocol= to > >>>> the > >>>> > >>> Linux kernel is in progress by a small community. The goal of this > >>> tutorial is to discover what is this TCP extension (RFC 6824), what a= re the > >>> different use-cases already in production by some companies and what = are > >>> the challenges to upstream MPTCP. We hope having interactive discussi= ons > >>> and getting feedback from experienced developers will help us in this= task > >>> of easily bringing MPTCP to all Linux users, a technology already use= d by > >>> millions of people. > >>> > >> > >> In a bit more detail, we will start with a basic introduction of > >>>> MPTCP. > >>>> > >>> A few use-cases will be presented with a demo to explain how useful t= his > >>> protocol is in today's Internet and how it can be extended with API's= like > >>> Netlink and BPF. > >>> > >> > >> I recognize how Netlink is associated with a userspace path manager, b= ut > >> what's the BPF extensibility you're referring to? > >> > > > > It was only to mention that it would be possible to extend MPTCP with e= BPF. > > Even if it is not already available in the current Open-Source > > implementation, there is already the possibility to get a version with a > > programmable scheduler: https://progmp.net > > > > Then we will have some explanations about how MPTCP is currently > >>> implemented. This current implementation is quite intrusive and that = is > >>> certainly not something we would like to have upstream. We would like= to > >>> express what we have in mind to change that, with some samples and in= itiate > >>> discussions. > >>> > >> > >> My edit of the above: > >> > >> """ > >> > >> A community project is underway to add Multipath TCP to the upstream > >> Linux kernel. This tutorial will introduce the audience to this TCP > >> extension (RFC 6824), show some use cases already in production, and > >> discuss the challenges in converging on an upstream MPTCP implementati= on. > >> > > > > Should we insist on the "discussion" part? Like saying: "discuss with t= he > > audience"? "have interactive discussions"? > > It is maybe not needed but it was mainly to express the interactivity, = it > > is a tutorial, not just a "simple" presentation. > > > > We will use the current MPTCP implementation to demonstrate the utility= of > >> the protocol on today's internet, and to show how this implementation = can > >> currently be extended with netlink and BPF. This not only has practical > >> application for deploying MPTCP now, but also illustrates how the APIs= and > >> code will need to evolve in order to properly coexist with the optimiz= ed > >> Linux TCP core we all rely on. We will discuss our ideas for bringing = MPTCP > >> to the upstream kernel so the technology is available to all Linux use= rs. > >> > > > > To "attract" people, should we mention that the current implementation = is > > already used by millions of users? > > I like how your improve the last bit :-) > > > > """ > >> > >> Feel free to edit/merge/expand/discard as needed :) > >> > > > > Thank you for your edit, it is indeed cleaner! > > > > For more information about this project: > >>>> > >>> https://github.com/multipath-tcp/mptcp_net-next/wiki > >> > >> > > I guess I can keep this, right? > > > > Please feel free to comment this as well. We are still far from the max > >>> 350 words limit we found last time. But on the other hand, I can no l= onger > >>> find this limit on their website :) > >>> > >> > >> Hope the above is helpful. Thanks again for your work on this proposal. > >> > > > > Yes it is, thank you for your help! > > > > Matthieu > > > > > >> > >> Mat > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>> Thank you for your help! > >>> > >>> Have a good day/evening, > >>> Matthieu > >>> > >>> On 25/04/2018 21:58, Mat Martineau wrote: > >>> > >>>> > >>>> Hi Matthieu - > >>>> > >>>> On Fri, 20 Apr 2018, Matthieu Baerts wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Hello, > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> NetDev 0x12 is coming to Montr=C3=A9al this summer: July 11th to 13= th, 2018. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> We already talked about this event on this ML and at our weekly > >>>>> meetings but here is a summary of the discussions we had: > >>>>> > >>>>> - we would like to have a presentation there mainly to get feedback > >>>>> and advice from other kernel developers > >>>>> - a presentation would clearly indicate that this MPTCP Upstream > >>>>> project exists and we could get help from more developers > >>>>> - we would like to indicate that having MPTCP upstream is asked by > >>>>> different companies, some are even ready to contribute ; it is then > >>>>> important to have MPTCP upstream > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Also note that: > >>>>> > >>>>> - David Miller will not be present in Montr=C3=A9al [1] but other = main > >>>>> contributors should be there (we don't have a list) > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> Side note, in the past day David reiterated his statement about not > >>>> attending or supporting the conference: > >>>> > >>>> https://marc.info/?l=3Dlinux-netdev&m=3D152466827203301&w=3D2 > >>>> > >>>> - A presentation by Octavian Purdila about "MPTCP Upstreaming" has > >>>>> already been given in 2015 (NetDev 0.1) [2] > >>>>> - 3 types of presentation are available: talks, tutorials and > >>>>> workshops [3] > >>>>> - Call for Presentation Proposals closes on May 1st, 2018. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> The current idea we briefly discussed during our weekly meetings is= to > >>>>> give a tutorial: > >>>>> > >>>>> - It is not useful to give almost the same presentation as the one= of > >>>>> Octavian > >>>>> - It will allow us more flexibility somehow to explain what is MPT= CP, > >>>>> the different use-cases, why it is important to have it upstream an= d what > >>>>> problems we are currently facing. > >>>>> - David Miller and many other kernel developers will go to LPC in > >>>>> November: a good place to give a talk this time. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Do you have any ideas on what we could show in this tutorial? > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> I recently discussed with my colleague Olivier Bonaventure who has a > >>>>> lot of experiences in giving different introductions and more about= MPTCP > >>>>> and here is what he suggests: > >>>>> > >>>>> - A first part about a basic introduction of MPTCP > >>>>> - Indicate different use-cases -- if possible with a "closed demo"= to > >>>>> be sure it is working -- asking people to setup something is not ea= sy in > >>>>> 1h, max 1h30. > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> From the description at [3], either "instructor-led" 60-90 minute > >>>> tutorials or "student-participation" 2-3 hour sessions are possible.= The > >>>> closed demo maps well to their "instructor-led" category. Looking at= the > >>>> schedule, the past two Netdev Conferences have had one tutorial each= , of > >>>> 60-70 minutes. I think it helps to be closer to an hour in length to= hold > >>>> the audience's attention. > >>>> > >>>> - Then trying to have interactive discussions or explanations about > >>>>> how MPTCP is currently implemented or should be implemented if it g= oes > >>>>> upstream, e.g.: for MPTCP, we need to have extra TCP Options, we ne= ed to > >>>>> support middleboxes, we need to link subflows of the same connection > >>>>> together, we need a scheduler, a PM, etc. > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> It's difficult to predict how interactive an audience will be. I've > >>>> only attended one Netdev Conference, and it seemed like there were a= lot > >>>> more people with expertise and interest in drivers, lower layers (XD= P, BPF, > >>>> TC, netfilter), and network topology/simulation. Discussion around > >>>> middlebox support and the userspace API might have more audience > >>>> interaction. If we want to drive a discussion, we could try to strik= e a > >>>> balance between topics for the broader audience and those with more > >>>> knowledge of TCP internals. (Hopefully some TCP internals people are= still > >>>> planning to attend) > >>>> > >>>> - Of course, we should focus our discussions on the upstreaming > >>>>> aspect, e.g. reducing the footprint of MPTCP in the current TCP sta= ck: what > >>>>> are we allow to do, what not. It is linked to many previous discuss= ions we > >>>>> had on this ML, e.g. why we need more indirect function calls and h= ow to > >>>>> reduce the impact, etc. > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> The previous talk ([2]) had a section like this. I haven't watched it > >>>> recently, I should look at it again to see what kind of questions the > >>>> audience was asking. As you mentioned above we should be careful to = have > >>>> new content compared to the previous session. > >>>> > >>>> - If we have time, we could discuss about how users could interact > >>>>> with MPTCP: enable it per connection, control the path manager, may= be the > >>>>> scheduler, etc. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> What do you think about this? Feel free to comment and even propose > >>>>> completely different ideas! > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> Thank you for outlining these ideas. I see that this topic is on our > >>>> meeting agenda so it will be good to discuss the tutorial there. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> [1] https://lists.01.org/pipermail/mptcp/2018-March/000379.html > >>>>> [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dwftz2cU5SZs > >>>>> [3] https://www.netdevconf.org/0x12/submit-proposal.html > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >> -- > >> Mat Martineau > >> Intel OTC > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > [image: Tessares SA] Matthieu Baerts | R&D > > Engineer > > matthieu.baerts(a)tessares.net > > Tessares SA | Hybrid Access Solutions > > www.tessares.net > > 1 Avenue Jean Monnet, 1348 Louvain-la-Neuve, Belgium > > > > > = > = > = > -- = > [image: Tessares SA] Matthieu Baerts | R&D > Engineer > matthieu.baerts(a)tessares.net > Tessares SA | Hybrid Access Solutions > www.tessares.net > 1 Avenue Jean Monnet, 1348 Louvain-la-Neuve, Belgium > > = > -- = > = > = > DISCLAIMER. > This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential = > and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they = > are addressed. 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