From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6735388615715814257==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Christoph Paasch To: mptcp at lists.01.org Subject: Re: [MPTCP] Call for ideas for a presentation about MPTCP Upstream project at NetDev 0x12 in July Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2018 11:17:06 -0700 Message-ID: <20180430181705.GV19260@MacBook-Pro-6.local> In-Reply-To: CAKuKrBnWVy5+g9wszeDxrxbT=Ea3c0a+QTKrJP6Lt5SyaxgcUw@mail.gmail.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 575 --===============6735388615715814257== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 30/04/18 - 19:34:10, Matthieu Baerts wrote: > On Mon, Apr 30, 2018 at 6:18 PM, Christoph Paasch w= rote: > = > > On 30/04/18 - 16:26:01, Matthieu Baerts wrote: > > > Hi Mat, Christoph, Peter, Ossama, > > > > > > I will wait for ~10am your time before sending it to let you some tim= es > > to > > > comment this if you want to do so. > > > > > > Best regards, > > > Matthieu > > > > > > On Sun, Apr 29, 2018 at 4:08 PM, Matthieu Baerts < > > > matthieu.baerts(a)tessares.net> wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Mat, > > > > > > > > Thank you for your review and input! > > > > > > > > On Sat, Apr 28, 2018 at 2:44 AM, Mat Martineau > > > > > intel.com> wrote: > > > > > > > >> > > > >> Hi Matthieu - > > > >> > > > >> On Fri, 27 Apr 2018, Matthieu Baerts wrote: > > > >> > > > >> Hello, > > > >>> > > > >>> Following yesterday's discussion about NetDev 0x12, here is a > > > >>> proposition of mail to send to NetDev committee. I already put so= me > > > >>> comments. Note that I have followed the submission guidelines fro= m: > > > >>> https://www.netdevconf.org/0x12/submit-proposal.html#proposals > > > >>> > > > >>> Please comment it before Monday morning. Sorry for the rush but t= he > > > >>> deadline is the 1st of May :) > > > >>> > > > >>> * Name(s) of the submitter(s): Christoph Paasch (Apple), Mat > > Martineau > > > >>>> > > > >>> (Intel), Peter Krystad (Intel), Ossama Othman (Intel) and myself, > > > >>> Matthieu Baerts (Tessares) > > > >>> > > > >>> I wrote down the names of people who participated in the discussi= on > > in > > > >>> the ML and during the weekly meetings. I can add more people if m= ore > > people > > > >>> would like to join the preparation and presentation of this tutor= ial. > > > >>> @Christoph, Mat, Peter, Ossama: can I write your names there? > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >> Ossama won't be able to attend. It looks like most sessions have 1= or > > 2 > > > >> presenters, so I don't know if 4 is too many. I'm sure they'll give > > us some > > > >> feedback if they want to limit the number of presenters. > > > >> > > > > > > > > OK thank you! > > > > Yes indeed, I am sure they will say something if we are too many. > > > > > > > > * Title of the submission: MPTCP: from the basic to an upstreamable > > base > > > >>>> > > > >>> > > > >>> We certainly need a better title, please comment! > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >> "Multipath TCP: Present Use Cases and an Upstream Future" ? > > > >> > > > > > > > > I was trying to find something that catch the attention but it is m= aybe > > > > not needed for these kind of presentation. > > > > > > > > > * Label (one of moonshot, nuts'n bolts, hands-on): hands-on > > > >>> > > > >>> "hands-on" seems to be the correct one according to the Submission > > Types. > > > >>> https://www.netdevconf.org/0x12/submit-proposal.html#types > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >> It's a little bit of "nuts & bolts" too, but I agree that hands-on= is > > the > > > >> better match. > > > >> > > > > > > > > Thank you! > > > > > > > > * Submission type (one of talk, presentation, workshop): tutorial, > > > >>>> > > > >>> instructor-led sessions (minimum 1 hour long and not to exceed 1.5 > > > >>> hours. The instructor will go over the technology either through = code > > > >>> review or execution and interact with the attendees.) > > > >>> > > > >>> I guess there is a typo here: presentation should be replaced by > > > >>> tutorial in the guidelines. > > > >>> > > > >>> Estimate of length of time for presentation: 1h > > > >>>> > > > >>> > > > >>> That's what we agreed yesterday but I can change. > > > >>> > > > >>> Affiliations of submitters (needed for conflict of interest check= ): > > > >>>> Apple, > > > > I will have to double-check on the affiliation part wrt to Apple. > > > > If I don't get a thumbs up, you can simply remove me from the list. > > > = > Do you want me to wait or can I send it today and ask to remove you from > the list later if needed? Can you wait a little bit? I am trying to get a hold of the one who can tell me "yes" or "no". Christoph > = > Matthieu > = > = > > > > Christoph > > > > > > > >>>> > > > >>> Intel, Tessares > > > >>> > > > >>> Description of proposal: > > > >>>> A project to add an implementation of the MultiPath TCP > > protocol to > > > >>>> the > > > >>>> > > > >>> Linux kernel is in progress by a small community. The goal of this > > > >>> tutorial is to discover what is this TCP extension (RFC 6824), wh= at > > are the > > > >>> different use-cases already in production by some companies and w= hat > > are > > > >>> the challenges to upstream MPTCP. We hope having interactive > > discussions > > > >>> and getting feedback from experienced developers will help us in > > this task > > > >>> of easily bringing MPTCP to all Linux users, a technology already > > used by > > > >>> millions of people. > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >> In a bit more detail, we will start with a basic introduction = of > > > >>>> MPTCP. > > > >>>> > > > >>> A few use-cases will be presented with a demo to explain how usef= ul > > this > > > >>> protocol is in today's Internet and how it can be extended with > > API's like > > > >>> Netlink and BPF. > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >> I recognize how Netlink is associated with a userspace path manage= r, > > but > > > >> what's the BPF extensibility you're referring to? > > > >> > > > > > > > > It was only to mention that it would be possible to extend MPTCP wi= th > > eBPF. > > > > Even if it is not already available in the current Open-Source > > > > implementation, there is already the possibility to get a version w= ith > > a > > > > programmable scheduler: https://progmp.net > > > > > > > > Then we will have some explanations about how MPTCP is currently > > > >>> implemented. This current implementation is quite intrusive and t= hat > > is > > > >>> certainly not something we would like to have upstream. We would > > like to > > > >>> express what we have in mind to change that, with some samples and > > initiate > > > >>> discussions. > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >> My edit of the above: > > > >> > > > >> """ > > > >> > > > >> A community project is underway to add Multipath TCP to the upstre= am > > > >> Linux kernel. This tutorial will introduce the audience to this TCP > > > >> extension (RFC 6824), show some use cases already in production, a= nd > > > >> discuss the challenges in converging on an upstream MPTCP > > implementation. > > > >> > > > > > > > > Should we insist on the "discussion" part? Like saying: "discuss wi= th > > the > > > > audience"? "have interactive discussions"? > > > > It is maybe not needed but it was mainly to express the interactivi= ty, > > it > > > > is a tutorial, not just a "simple" presentation. > > > > > > > > We will use the current MPTCP implementation to demonstrate the > > utility of > > > >> the protocol on today's internet, and to show how this implementat= ion > > can > > > >> currently be extended with netlink and BPF. This not only has > > practical > > > >> application for deploying MPTCP now, but also illustrates how the > > APIs and > > > >> code will need to evolve in order to properly coexist with the > > optimized > > > >> Linux TCP core we all rely on. We will discuss our ideas for bring= ing > > MPTCP > > > >> to the upstream kernel so the technology is available to all Linux > > users. > > > >> > > > > > > > > To "attract" people, should we mention that the current implementat= ion > > is > > > > already used by millions of users? > > > > I like how your improve the last bit :-) > > > > > > > > """ > > > >> > > > >> Feel free to edit/merge/expand/discard as needed :) > > > >> > > > > > > > > Thank you for your edit, it is indeed cleaner! > > > > > > > > For more information about this project: > > > >>>> > > > >>> https://github.com/multipath-tcp/mptcp_net-next/wiki > > > >> > > > >> > > > > I guess I can keep this, right? > > > > > > > > Please feel free to comment this as well. We are still far from the= max > > > >>> 350 words limit we found last time. But on the other hand, I can = no > > longer > > > >>> find this limit on their website :) > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >> Hope the above is helpful. Thanks again for your work on this > > proposal. > > > >> > > > > > > > > Yes it is, thank you for your help! > > > > > > > > Matthieu > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > >> Mat > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >>> Thank you for your help! > > > >>> > > > >>> Have a good day/evening, > > > >>> Matthieu > > > >>> > > > >>> On 25/04/2018 21:58, Mat Martineau wrote: > > > >>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Hi Matthieu - > > > >>>> > > > >>>> On Fri, 20 Apr 2018, Matthieu Baerts wrote: > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Hello, > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> NetDev 0x12 is coming to Montr=C3=A9al this summer: July 11th t= o 13th, > > 2018. > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> We already talked about this event on this ML and at our weekly > > > >>>>> meetings but here is a summary of the discussions we had: > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> - we would like to have a presentation there mainly to get > > feedback > > > >>>>> and advice from other kernel developers > > > >>>>> - a presentation would clearly indicate that this MPTCP Upstre= am > > > >>>>> project exists and we could get help from more developers > > > >>>>> - we would like to indicate that having MPTCP upstream is aske= d by > > > >>>>> different companies, some are even ready to contribute ; it is = then > > > >>>>> important to have MPTCP upstream > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> Also note that: > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> - David Miller will not be present in Montr=C3=A9al [1] but ot= her main > > > >>>>> contributors should be there (we don't have a list) > > > >>>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Side note, in the past day David reiterated his statement about = not > > > >>>> attending or supporting the conference: > > > >>>> > > > >>>> https://marc.info/?l=3Dlinux-netdev&m=3D152466827203301&w=3D2 > > > >>>> > > > >>>> - A presentation by Octavian Purdila about "MPTCP Upstreaming" = has > > > >>>>> already been given in 2015 (NetDev 0.1) [2] > > > >>>>> - 3 types of presentation are available: talks, tutorials and > > > >>>>> workshops [3] > > > >>>>> - Call for Presentation Proposals closes on May 1st, 2018. > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> The current idea we briefly discussed during our weekly meetings > > is to > > > >>>>> give a tutorial: > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> - It is not useful to give almost the same presentation as the > > one of > > > >>>>> Octavian > > > >>>>> - It will allow us more flexibility somehow to explain what is > > MPTCP, > > > >>>>> the different use-cases, why it is important to have it upstream > > and what > > > >>>>> problems we are currently facing. > > > >>>>> - David Miller and many other kernel developers will go to LPC= in > > > >>>>> November: a good place to give a talk this time. > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> Do you have any ideas on what we could show in this tutorial? > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> I recently discussed with my colleague Olivier Bonaventure who = has > > a > > > >>>>> lot of experiences in giving different introductions and more > > about MPTCP > > > >>>>> and here is what he suggests: > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> - A first part about a basic introduction of MPTCP > > > >>>>> - Indicate different use-cases -- if possible with a "closed > > demo" to > > > >>>>> be sure it is working -- asking people to setup something is not > > easy in > > > >>>>> 1h, max 1h30. > > > >>>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> From the description at [3], either "instructor-led" 60-90 minu= te > > > >>>> tutorials or "student-participation" 2-3 hour sessions are > > possible. The > > > >>>> closed demo maps well to their "instructor-led" category. Looking > > at the > > > >>>> schedule, the past two Netdev Conferences have had one tutorial > > each, of > > > >>>> 60-70 minutes. I think it helps to be closer to an hour in length > > to hold > > > >>>> the audience's attention. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> - Then trying to have interactive discussions or explanations a= bout > > > >>>>> how MPTCP is currently implemented or should be implemented if = it > > goes > > > >>>>> upstream, e.g.: for MPTCP, we need to have extra TCP Options, we > > need to > > > >>>>> support middleboxes, we need to link subflows of the same > > connection > > > >>>>> together, we need a scheduler, a PM, etc. > > > >>>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> It's difficult to predict how interactive an audience will be. I= 've > > > >>>> only attended one Netdev Conference, and it seemed like there we= re > > a lot > > > >>>> more people with expertise and interest in drivers, lower layers > > (XDP, BPF, > > > >>>> TC, netfilter), and network topology/simulation. Discussion arou= nd > > > >>>> middlebox support and the userspace API might have more audience > > > >>>> interaction. If we want to drive a discussion, we could try to > > strike a > > > >>>> balance between topics for the broader audience and those with m= ore > > > >>>> knowledge of TCP internals. (Hopefully some TCP internals people > > are still > > > >>>> planning to attend) > > > >>>> > > > >>>> - Of course, we should focus our discussions on the upstreaming > > > >>>>> aspect, e.g. reducing the footprint of MPTCP in the current TCP > > stack: what > > > >>>>> are we allow to do, what not. It is linked to many previous > > discussions we > > > >>>>> had on this ML, e.g. why we need more indirect function calls a= nd > > how to > > > >>>>> reduce the impact, etc. > > > >>>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> The previous talk ([2]) had a section like this. I haven't watch= ed > > it > > > >>>> recently, I should look at it again to see what kind of questions > > the > > > >>>> audience was asking. As you mentioned above we should be careful= to > > have > > > >>>> new content compared to the previous session. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> - If we have time, we could discuss about how users could inter= act > > > >>>>> with MPTCP: enable it per connection, control the path manager, > > maybe the > > > >>>>> scheduler, etc. > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> What do you think about this? Feel free to comment and even pro= pose > > > >>>>> completely different ideas! > > > >>>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Thank you for outlining these ideas. I see that this topic is on= our > > > >>>> meeting agenda so it will be good to discuss the tutorial there. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> [1] https://lists.01.org/pipermail/mptcp/2018-March/000379.html > > > >>>>> [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dwftz2cU5SZs > > > >>>>> [3] https://www.netdevconf.org/0x12/submit-proposal.html > > > >>>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >> -- > > > >> Mat Martineau > > > >> Intel OTC > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > [image: Tessares SA] Matthieu Baerts | R&D > > > > Engineer > > > > matthieu.baerts(a)tessares.net > > > > Tessares SA | Hybrid Access Solutions > > > > www.tessares.net > > > > 1 Avenue Jean Monnet, 1348 Louvain-la-Neuve, Belgium > > > > > Ottignies-Louvain-la-Neuve,+Belgium> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > [image: Tessares SA] Matthieu Baerts | R&D > > > Engineer > > > matthieu.baerts(a)tessares.net > > > Tessares SA | Hybrid Access Solutions > > > www.tessares.net > > > 1 Avenue Jean Monnet, 1348 Louvain-la-Neuve, Belgium > > > > Ottignies-Louvain-la-Neuve,+Belgium> > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > DISCLAIMER. > > > This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential > > > and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom t= hey > > > are addressed. 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