From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7805936692063086516==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Christoph Paasch To: mptcp at lists.01.org Subject: Re: [MPTCP] Call for ideas for a presentation about MPTCP Upstream project at NetDev 0x12 in July Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2018 12:35:23 -0700 Message-ID: <20180430193523.GX19260@MacBook-Pro-6.local> In-Reply-To: CAKuKrBmEFA4wwODpSeO_PAqLuzDv-2jZN5LaKHSrwvTqVO1Ecw@mail.gmail.com X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 580 --===============7805936692063086516== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 30/04/18 - 21:03:31, Matthieu Baerts wrote: > On Mon, Apr 30, 2018 at 8:44 PM, Matthieu Baerts < > matthieu.baerts(a)tessares.net> wrote: > = > > > > > > On Mon, Apr 30, 2018 at 8:40 PM, Christoph Paasch > > wrote: > > > >> On 30/04/18 - 11:17:06, Christoph Paasch wrote: > >> > On 30/04/18 - 19:34:10, Matthieu Baerts wrote: > >> > > On Mon, Apr 30, 2018 at 6:18 PM, Christoph Paasch > >> wrote: > >> > > > >> > > > On 30/04/18 - 16:26:01, Matthieu Baerts wrote: > >> > > > > Hi Mat, Christoph, Peter, Ossama, > >> > > > > > >> > > > > I will wait for ~10am your time before sending it to let you s= ome > >> times > >> > > > to > >> > > > > comment this if you want to do so. > >> > > > > > >> > > > > Best regards, > >> > > > > Matthieu > >> > > > > > >> > > > > On Sun, Apr 29, 2018 at 4:08 PM, Matthieu Baerts < > >> > > > > matthieu.baerts(a)tessares.net> wrote: > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > Hi Mat, > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > Thank you for your review and input! > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > On Sat, Apr 28, 2018 at 2:44 AM, Mat Martineau > >> > > > >> > > > > > intel.com> wrote: > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > >> > >> > > > > >> Hi Matthieu - > >> > > > > >> > >> > > > > >> On Fri, 27 Apr 2018, Matthieu Baerts wrote: > >> > > > > >> > >> > > > > >> Hello, > >> > > > > >>> > >> > > > > >>> Following yesterday's discussion about NetDev 0x12, here i= s a > >> > > > > >>> proposition of mail to send to NetDev committee. I already > >> put some > >> > > > > >>> comments. Note that I have followed the submission guideli= nes > >> from: > >> > > > > >>> https://www.netdevconf.org/0x12/submit-proposal.html#propo= sa > >> ls > >> > > > > >>> > >> > > > > >>> Please comment it before Monday morning. Sorry for the rush > >> but the > >> > > > > >>> deadline is the 1st of May :) > >> > > > > >>> > >> > > > > >>> * Name(s) of the submitter(s): Christoph Paasch (Apple), M= at > >> > > > Martineau > >> > > > > >>>> > >> > > > > >>> (Intel), Peter Krystad (Intel), Ossama Othman (Intel) and > >> myself, > >> > > > > >>> Matthieu Baerts (Tessares) > >> > > > > >>> > >> > > > > >>> I wrote down the names of people who participated in the > >> discussion > >> > > > in > >> > > > > >>> the ML and during the weekly meetings. I can add more peop= le > >> if more > >> > > > people > >> > > > > >>> would like to join the preparation and presentation of this > >> tutorial. > >> > > > > >>> @Christoph, Mat, Peter, Ossama: can I write your names the= re? > >> > > > > >>> > >> > > > > >> > >> > > > > >> Ossama won't be able to attend. It looks like most sessions > >> have 1 or > >> > > > 2 > >> > > > > >> presenters, so I don't know if 4 is too many. I'm sure they= 'll > >> give > >> > > > us some > >> > > > > >> feedback if they want to limit the number of presenters. > >> > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > OK thank you! > >> > > > > > Yes indeed, I am sure they will say something if we are too > >> many. > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > * Title of the submission: MPTCP: from the basic to an > >> upstreamable > >> > > > base > >> > > > > >>>> > >> > > > > >>> > >> > > > > >>> We certainly need a better title, please comment! > >> > > > > >>> > >> > > > > >> > >> > > > > >> "Multipath TCP: Present Use Cases and an Upstream Future" ? > >> > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > I was trying to find something that catch the attention but = it > >> is maybe > >> > > > > > not needed for these kind of presentation. > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > * Label (one of moonshot, nuts'n bolts, hands-on): hands-on > >> > > > > >>> > >> > > > > >>> "hands-on" seems to be the correct one according to the > >> Submission > >> > > > Types. > >> > > > > >>> https://www.netdevconf.org/0x12/submit-proposal.html#types > >> > > > > >>> > >> > > > > >> > >> > > > > >> It's a little bit of "nuts & bolts" too, but I agree that > >> hands-on is > >> > > > the > >> > > > > >> better match. > >> > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > Thank you! > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > * Submission type (one of talk, presentation, workshop): > >> tutorial, > >> > > > > >>>> > >> > > > > >>> instructor-led sessions (minimum 1 hour long and not to > >> exceed 1.5 > >> > > > > >>> hours. The instructor will go over the technology either > >> through code > >> > > > > >>> review or execution and interact with the attendees.) > >> > > > > >>> > >> > > > > >>> I guess there is a typo here: presentation should be repla= ced > >> by > >> > > > > >>> tutorial in the guidelines. > >> > > > > >>> > >> > > > > >>> Estimate of length of time for presentation: 1h > >> > > > > >>>> > >> > > > > >>> > >> > > > > >>> That's what we agreed yesterday but I can change. > >> > > > > >>> > >> > > > > >>> Affiliations of submitters (needed for conflict of interest > >> check): > >> > > > > >>>> Apple, > >> > > > > >> > > > I will have to double-check on the affiliation part wrt to Apple. > >> > > > > >> > > > If I don't get a thumbs up, you can simply remove me from the li= st. > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > Do you want me to wait or can I send it today and ask to remove you > >> from > >> > > the list later if needed? > >> > > >> > Can you wait a little bit? I am trying to get a hold of the one who = can > >> tell > >> > me "yes" or "no". > >> > >> Matthieu, you can leave the Apple-affiliation in for now. > >> > >> At worst, we can always remove me from the list. > >> > >> > >> Sorry for the delay on this here. > >> > > > > All good, I can wait more if you prefer! > > > > From my point-of-view, you can go ahead and submit the proposal. > >> > > > > Great! > > Let me recompile all bits! > > > = > Here is what I am going to send: > = > Names of the submitters: Christoph Paasch (Apple), Mat Martineau (Intel), > > Peter Krystad (Intel) and myself, Matthieu Baerts (Tessares) > > Title of the submission: Multipath TCP: Present Use Cases and an Upstre= am > > Future > > Label: hands-on > > Submission type: tutorial > > Estimate of length of time for presentation: 1h > > Affiliations of submitters (needed for conflict of interest check): App= le, > > Intel, Tessares > > Description of proposal: > > A community project is underway to add Multipath TCP to the upstream > > Linux kernel. This tutorial will introduce the audience to this TCP > > extension (RFC 6824), show some use-cases already in production and have > > interactive discussions of the challenges in converging on an upstream > > MPTCP implementation. > > > > We will use the current MPTCP implementation, already used by milli= ons > > of devices, to demonstrate the utility of the protocol on today's Inter= net > > and to show how this implementation can currently be extended with APIs > > like Netlink. This not only has practical application for deploying > > Multipath TCP now, but also illustrates how the APIs and code will need= to > > evolve in order to properly coexist with the optimized Linux TCP core we > > all rely on. We will discuss our ideas for bringing MPTCP to the upstre= am > > kernel so the technology is available to all Linux users. > > > > For more information about this project: > > https://github.com/multipath-tcp/mptcp_net-next/wiki > > > = > I don't want to bother you for a new review. I hope and I guess it is fine > for everybody :) Awesome! Christoph > = > Matthieu > = > = > > Matthieu > > > > > >> > >> Christoph > >> > >> > >> > >> > > >> > > >> > Christoph > >> > > >> > > > >> > > Matthieu > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > >> > > > Christoph > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >>>> > >> > > > > >>> Intel, Tessares > >> > > > > >>> > >> > > > > >>> Description of proposal: > >> > > > > >>>> A project to add an implementation of the MultiPath T= CP > >> > > > protocol to > >> > > > > >>>> the > >> > > > > >>>> > >> > > > > >>> Linux kernel is in progress by a small community. The goal= of > >> this > >> > > > > >>> tutorial is to discover what is this TCP extension (RFC > >> 6824), what > >> > > > are the > >> > > > > >>> different use-cases already in production by some companies > >> and what > >> > > > are > >> > > > > >>> the challenges to upstream MPTCP. We hope having interacti= ve > >> > > > discussions > >> > > > > >>> and getting feedback from experienced developers will help= us > >> in > >> > > > this task > >> > > > > >>> of easily bringing MPTCP to all Linux users, a technology > >> already > >> > > > used by > >> > > > > >>> millions of people. > >> > > > > >>> > >> > > > > >> > >> > > > > >> In a bit more detail, we will start with a basic > >> introduction of > >> > > > > >>>> MPTCP. > >> > > > > >>>> > >> > > > > >>> A few use-cases will be presented with a demo to explain h= ow > >> useful > >> > > > this > >> > > > > >>> protocol is in today's Internet and how it can be extended > >> with > >> > > > API's like > >> > > > > >>> Netlink and BPF. > >> > > > > >>> > >> > > > > >> > >> > > > > >> I recognize how Netlink is associated with a userspace path > >> manager, > >> > > > but > >> > > > > >> what's the BPF extensibility you're referring to? > >> > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > It was only to mention that it would be possible to extend > >> MPTCP with > >> > > > eBPF. > >> > > > > > Even if it is not already available in the current Open-Sour= ce > >> > > > > > implementation, there is already the possibility to get a > >> version with > >> > > > a > >> > > > > > programmable scheduler: https://progmp.net > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > Then we will have some explanations about how MPTCP is curre= ntly > >> > > > > >>> implemented. This current implementation is quite intrusive > >> and that > >> > > > is > >> > > > > >>> certainly not something we would like to have upstream. We > >> would > >> > > > like to > >> > > > > >>> express what we have in mind to change that, with some > >> samples and > >> > > > initiate > >> > > > > >>> discussions. > >> > > > > >>> > >> > > > > >> > >> > > > > >> My edit of the above: > >> > > > > >> > >> > > > > >> """ > >> > > > > >> > >> > > > > >> A community project is underway to add Multipath TCP to the > >> upstream > >> > > > > >> Linux kernel. This tutorial will introduce the audience to > >> this TCP > >> > > > > >> extension (RFC 6824), show some use cases already in > >> production, and > >> > > > > >> discuss the challenges in converging on an upstream MPTCP > >> > > > implementation. > >> > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > Should we insist on the "discussion" part? Like saying: > >> "discuss with > >> > > > the > >> > > > > > audience"? "have interactive discussions"? > >> > > > > > It is maybe not needed but it was mainly to express the > >> interactivity, > >> > > > it > >> > > > > > is a tutorial, not just a "simple" presentation. > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > We will use the current MPTCP implementation to demonstrate = the > >> > > > utility of > >> > > > > >> the protocol on today's internet, and to show how this > >> implementation > >> > > > can > >> > > > > >> currently be extended with netlink and BPF. This not only h= as > >> > > > practical > >> > > > > >> application for deploying MPTCP now, but also illustrates h= ow > >> the > >> > > > APIs and > >> > > > > >> code will need to evolve in order to properly coexist with = the > >> > > > optimized > >> > > > > >> Linux TCP core we all rely on. We will discuss our ideas for > >> bringing > >> > > > MPTCP > >> > > > > >> to the upstream kernel so the technology is available to all > >> Linux > >> > > > users. > >> > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > To "attract" people, should we mention that the current > >> implementation > >> > > > is > >> > > > > > already used by millions of users? > >> > > > > > I like how your improve the last bit :-) > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > """ > >> > > > > >> > >> > > > > >> Feel free to edit/merge/expand/discard as needed :) > >> > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > Thank you for your edit, it is indeed cleaner! > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > For more information about this project: > >> > > > > >>>> > >> > > > > >>> https://github.com/multipath-tcp/mptcp_net-next/wiki > >> > > > > >> > >> > > > > >> > >> > > > > > I guess I can keep this, right? > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > Please feel free to comment this as well. We are still far f= rom > >> the max > >> > > > > >>> 350 words limit we found last time. But on the other hand,= I > >> can no > >> > > > longer > >> > > > > >>> find this limit on their website :) > >> > > > > >>> > >> > > > > >> > >> > > > > >> Hope the above is helpful. Thanks again for your work on th= is > >> > > > proposal. > >> > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > Yes it is, thank you for your help! > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > Matthieu > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > >> > >> > > > > >> Mat > >> > > > > >> > >> > > > > >> > >> > > > > >> > >> > > > > >> > >> > > > > >>> Thank you for your help! > >> > > > > >>> > >> > > > > >>> Have a good day/evening, > >> > > > > >>> Matthieu > >> > > > > >>> > >> > > > > >>> On 25/04/2018 21:58, Mat Martineau wrote: > >> > > > > >>> > >> > > > > >>>> > >> > > > > >>>> Hi Matthieu - > >> > > > > >>>> > >> > > > > >>>> On Fri, 20 Apr 2018, Matthieu Baerts wrote: > >> > > > > >>>> > >> > > > > >>>> Hello, > >> > > > > >>>>> > >> > > > > >>>>> > >> > > > > >>>>> NetDev 0x12 is coming to Montr=C3=A9al this summer: July= 11th to > >> 13th, > >> > > > 2018. > >> > > > > >>>>> > >> > > > > >>>>> > >> > > > > >>>>> We already talked about this event on this ML and at our > >> weekly > >> > > > > >>>>> meetings but here is a summary of the discussions we had: > >> > > > > >>>>> > >> > > > > >>>>> - we would like to have a presentation there mainly to = get > >> > > > feedback > >> > > > > >>>>> and advice from other kernel developers > >> > > > > >>>>> - a presentation would clearly indicate that this MPTCP > >> Upstream > >> > > > > >>>>> project exists and we could get help from more developers > >> > > > > >>>>> - we would like to indicate that having MPTCP upstream = is > >> asked by > >> > > > > >>>>> different companies, some are even ready to contribute ;= it > >> is then > >> > > > > >>>>> important to have MPTCP upstream > >> > > > > >>>>> > >> > > > > >>>>> > >> > > > > >>>>> Also note that: > >> > > > > >>>>> > >> > > > > >>>>> - David Miller will not be present in Montr=C3=A9al [1]= but > >> other main > >> > > > > >>>>> contributors should be there (we don't have a list) > >> > > > > >>>>> > >> > > > > >>>> > >> > > > > >>>> Side note, in the past day David reiterated his statement > >> about not > >> > > > > >>>> attending or supporting the conference: > >> > > > > >>>> > >> > > > > >>>> https://marc.info/?l=3Dlinux-netdev&m=3D152466827203301&w= =3D2 > >> > > > > >>>> > >> > > > > >>>> - A presentation by Octavian Purdila about "MPTCP > >> Upstreaming" has > >> > > > > >>>>> already been given in 2015 (NetDev 0.1) [2] > >> > > > > >>>>> - 3 types of presentation are available: talks, tutoria= ls > >> and > >> > > > > >>>>> workshops [3] > >> > > > > >>>>> - Call for Presentation Proposals closes on May 1st, 20= 18. > >> > > > > >>>>> > >> > > > > >>>>> > >> > > > > >>>>> The current idea we briefly discussed during our weekly > >> meetings > >> > > > is to > >> > > > > >>>>> give a tutorial: > >> > > > > >>>>> > >> > > > > >>>>> - It is not useful to give almost the same presentation= as > >> the > >> > > > one of > >> > > > > >>>>> Octavian > >> > > > > >>>>> - It will allow us more flexibility somehow to explain > >> what is > >> > > > MPTCP, > >> > > > > >>>>> the different use-cases, why it is important to have it > >> upstream > >> > > > and what > >> > > > > >>>>> problems we are currently facing. > >> > > > > >>>>> - David Miller and many other kernel developers will go= to > >> LPC in > >> > > > > >>>>> November: a good place to give a talk this time. > >> > > > > >>>>> > >> > > > > >>>>> > >> > > > > >>>>> Do you have any ideas on what we could show in this > >> tutorial? > >> > > > > >>>>> > >> > > > > >>>>> > >> > > > > >>>>> I recently discussed with my colleague Olivier Bonaventu= re > >> who has > >> > > > a > >> > > > > >>>>> lot of experiences in giving different introductions and > >> more > >> > > > about MPTCP > >> > > > > >>>>> and here is what he suggests: > >> > > > > >>>>> > >> > > > > >>>>> - A first part about a basic introduction of MPTCP > >> > > > > >>>>> - Indicate different use-cases -- if possible with a > >> "closed > >> > > > demo" to > >> > > > > >>>>> be sure it is working -- asking people to setup something > >> is not > >> > > > easy in > >> > > > > >>>>> 1h, max 1h30. > >> > > > > >>>>> > >> > > > > >>>> > >> > > > > >>>> From the description at [3], either "instructor-led" 60-= 90 > >> minute > >> > > > > >>>> tutorials or "student-participation" 2-3 hour sessions are > >> > > > possible. The > >> > > > > >>>> closed demo maps well to their "instructor-led" category. > >> Looking > >> > > > at the > >> > > > > >>>> schedule, the past two Netdev Conferences have had one > >> tutorial > >> > > > each, of > >> > > > > >>>> 60-70 minutes. I think it helps to be closer to an hour in > >> length > >> > > > to hold > >> > > > > >>>> the audience's attention. > >> > > > > >>>> > >> > > > > >>>> - Then trying to have interactive discussions or > >> explanations about > >> > > > > >>>>> how MPTCP is currently implemented or should be implemen= ted > >> if it > >> > > > goes > >> > > > > >>>>> upstream, e.g.: for MPTCP, we need to have extra TCP > >> Options, we > >> > > > need to > >> > > > > >>>>> support middleboxes, we need to link subflows of the same > >> > > > connection > >> > > > > >>>>> together, we need a scheduler, a PM, etc. > >> > > > > >>>>> > >> > > > > >>>> > >> > > > > >>>> It's difficult to predict how interactive an audience will > >> be. I've > >> > > > > >>>> only attended one Netdev Conference, and it seemed like > >> there were > >> > > > a lot > >> > > > > >>>> more people with expertise and interest in drivers, lower > >> layers > >> > > > (XDP, BPF, > >> > > > > >>>> TC, netfilter), and network topology/simulation. Discussi= on > >> around > >> > > > > >>>> middlebox support and the userspace API might have more > >> audience > >> > > > > >>>> interaction. If we want to drive a discussion, we could t= ry > >> to > >> > > > strike a > >> > > > > >>>> balance between topics for the broader audience and those > >> with more > >> > > > > >>>> knowledge of TCP internals. (Hopefully some TCP internals > >> people > >> > > > are still > >> > > > > >>>> planning to attend) > >> > > > > >>>> > >> > > > > >>>> - Of course, we should focus our discussions on the > >> upstreaming > >> > > > > >>>>> aspect, e.g. reducing the footprint of MPTCP in the curr= ent > >> TCP > >> > > > stack: what > >> > > > > >>>>> are we allow to do, what not. It is linked to many previ= ous > >> > > > discussions we > >> > > > > >>>>> had on this ML, e.g. why we need more indirect function > >> calls and > >> > > > how to > >> > > > > >>>>> reduce the impact, etc. > >> > > > > >>>>> > >> > > > > >>>> > >> > > > > >>>> The previous talk ([2]) had a section like this. I haven't > >> watched > >> > > > it > >> > > > > >>>> recently, I should look at it again to see what kind of > >> questions > >> > > > the > >> > > > > >>>> audience was asking. As you mentioned above we should be > >> careful to > >> > > > have > >> > > > > >>>> new content compared to the previous session. > >> > > > > >>>> > >> > > > > >>>> - If we have time, we could discuss about how users could > >> interact > >> > > > > >>>>> with MPTCP: enable it per connection, control the path > >> manager, > >> > > > maybe the > >> > > > > >>>>> scheduler, etc. > >> > > > > >>>>> > >> > > > > >>>>> > >> > > > > >>>>> What do you think about this? Feel free to comment and e= ven > >> propose > >> > > > > >>>>> completely different ideas! > >> > > > > >>>>> > >> > > > > >>>> > >> > > > > >>>> Thank you for outlining these ideas. I see that this topic > >> is on our > >> > > > > >>>> meeting agenda so it will be good to discuss the tutorial > >> there. > >> > > > > >>>> > >> > > > > >>>> > >> > > > > >>>> [1] https://lists.01.org/pipermail > >> /mptcp/2018-March/000379.html > >> > > > > >>>>> [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dwftz2cU5SZs > >> > > > > >>>>> [3] https://www.netdevconf.org/0x12/submit-proposal.html > >> > > > > >>>>> > >> > > > > >>>> > >> > > > > >>>> > >> > > > > >> -- > >> > > > > >> Mat Martineau > >> > > > > >> Intel OTC > >> > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > -- > >> > > > > > [image: Tessares SA] Matthieu Baer= ts > >> | R&D > >> > > > > > Engineer > >> > > > > > matthieu.baerts(a)tessares.net > >> > > > > > Tessares SA | Hybrid Access Solutions > >> > > > > > www.tessares.net > >> > > > > > 1 Avenue Jean Monnet, 1348 Louvain-la-Neuve, Belgium > >> > > > > > >> > > > Ottignies-Louvain-la-Neuve,+Belgium> > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > -- > >> > > > > [image: Tessares SA] Matthieu Baerts= | > >> R&D > >> > > > > Engineer > >> > > > > matthieu.baerts(a)tessares.net > >> > > > > Tessares SA | Hybrid Access Solutions > >> > > > > www.tessares.net > >> > > > > 1 Avenue Jean Monnet, 1348 Louvain-la-Neuve, Belgium > >> > > > > >> > > > Ottignies-Louvain-la-Neuve,+Belgium> > >> > > > > > >> > > > > -- > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > DISCLAIMER. > >> > > > > This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential > >> > > > > and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to > >> whom they > >> > > > > are addressed. 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If you are not the > >> > > intended recipient you are notified that disclosing, copying, > >> distributing > >> > > or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this informati= on > >> is > >> > > strictly prohibited. > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > mptcp mailing list > >> > mptcp(a)lists.01.org > >> > https://lists.01.org/mailman/listinfo/mptcp > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > [image: Tessares SA] Matthieu Baerts | R&D > > Engineer > > matthieu.baerts(a)tessares.net > > Tessares SA | Hybrid Access Solutions > > www.tessares.net > > 1 Avenue Jean Monnet, 1348 Louvain-la-Neuve, Belgium > > > > > = > = > = > -- = > [image: Tessares SA] Matthieu Baerts | R&D > Engineer > matthieu.baerts(a)tessares.net > Tessares SA | Hybrid Access Solutions > www.tessares.net > 1 Avenue Jean Monnet, 1348 Louvain-la-Neuve, Belgium > > = > -- = > = > = > DISCLAIMER. > This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential = > and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they = > are addressed. 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