From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Authentication-Results: lists.ozlabs.org; spf=pass (sender SPF authorized) smtp.mailfrom=stwcx.xyz (client-ip=64.147.123.21; helo=wout5-smtp.messagingengine.com; envelope-from=patrick@stwcx.xyz; receiver=) Authentication-Results: lists.ozlabs.org; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=stwcx.xyz Authentication-Results: lists.ozlabs.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=stwcx.xyz header.i=@stwcx.xyz header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=fm1 header.b=oWY/5q87; dkim=pass (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=messagingengine.com header.i=@messagingengine.com header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=fm2 header.b=GYZYOf3y; dkim-atps=neutral Received: from wout5-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout5-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.ozlabs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49LLgb2CpmzDqNd for ; Mon, 11 May 2020 23:02:19 +1000 (AEST) Received: from compute7.internal (compute7.nyi.internal [10.202.2.47]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BFBA2AF; Mon, 11 May 2020 09:02:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute7.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 11 May 2020 09:02:15 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=stwcx.xyz; h= date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:in-reply-to; s=fm1; bh=mTVVMXHrp9Rq0T/JD7UPmstSKDn pB+fuqPeO1bQ5fVg=; b=oWY/5q87uWN6do9V3YzuTxt7rzUqQTK6MCXpDztV74S xowaNpJuoDUGRDZxAaRUTsTTi1UENxMtk5RtYZvLKv19NwW43eg5W9lL0ShcnIT1 +YLp8pTs8bfDCtqVD1IWLrzkzdIHf62CMpSWjlXnKRFsr4GRZEAN3xE9oe2KssF+ FmOIGZJrB3Gfz4TZaORQRSiOrJzkyvbg4RVJi/Q2QQofp79W7tjT7YzRNFsOupKM ypwbGrf/6N/vdI12T1GgoeGbXjTCwMHt3MLJJbKCZnlpHIhJqntFq0GkSDvKXgI5 971GJemv3yg7dsy0Y+RjER0M5+VvaVParmSiukKRhCw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=mTVVMX Hrp9Rq0T/JD7UPmstSKDnpB+fuqPeO1bQ5fVg=; b=GYZYOf3yk+1NRi5ewMcRR3 Cah2paglXuJ6HjUwOcIq9aDXacEFiId0SNL6X7kK4AMAEASVavol2UuU4mhVfEob bnpsQsw6BCkNNsli3jswxrzT9YR1UZnn9XEfi0yo1h/vBfgpYbe0obz5LAWrS+wM Aq85udaVicmq8WJPG9BuGLAWSUe1GTKBrD22f+nY3jUT28trJaWW37OSmbVmALkA Jmjrt7xS1hecDEP2xHGXLrkxJIq574tMOx84qah05c4OUHkJCQnrAh8yOvMvaX7J PUnTCZsTLnvhCkauNY0cIJqYo9IpdKMDWFnglAK+sVObiiySNUzsIRf5rOkS5pvg == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduhedrledtgdehfecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecufghrlhcuvffnffculdejtddmnecujfgurhepfffhvf fukfhfgggtuggjsehgtderredttddvnecuhfhrohhmpefrrghtrhhitghkucghihhllhhi rghmshcuoehprghtrhhitghksehsthiftgigrdighiiiqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpe egheehfeffgeekveehtdfhgfduhfegfefgtdehhfektdelffevkefgueffhedtieenucfk phepjeeirddvhedtrdekgedrvdefieenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrh grmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehprghtrhhitghksehsthiftgigrdighiii X-ME-Proxy: Received: from localhost (76-250-84-236.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net [76.250.84.236]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 771473280065; Mon, 11 May 2020 09:02:13 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 08:02:09 -0500 From: Patrick Williams To: Lee Fisher Cc: openbmc@lists.ozlabs.org Subject: Re: Update tools (fwupd, swupdate, ...) Message-ID: <20200511130209.GC10214@heinlein> References: <703ee8c0b9265cdae7fa7fc2583be04e@linux.vnet.ibm.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="69pVuxX8awAiJ7fD" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-BeenThere: openbmc@lists.ozlabs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Development list for OpenBMC List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 May 2020 13:02:19 -0000 --69pVuxX8awAiJ7fD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, May 08, 2020 at 07:16:34AM -0700, Lee Fisher wrote: > On 5/7/20 9:16 PM, Andrew Jeffery wrote: >=20 > > On Fri, 8 May 2020, at 03:33, Adriana Kobylak wrote: > These days, you should not buy a Linux system if it isn't supported by > FWupd. >=20 As an end user, I Like fwupd. It recently told me about a firmware update for my mouse that I didn't realize even had firmware. Alright, everything has firmware but I would have never looked for a security firmware update to my mouse. > If OpenBMC doesn't support FWUpd they'll need to duplicate most of the > infra that FWUpd has. >=20 > Having OpenBMC support FWupd would be a very good security feature. I would be curious about how fwupd plans to support enterprise-level deployments in the long term. As it stands right now, I don't see a lot of value for fwupd for any large system deployment. I bet most large deployments already have their own firmware update infrastructure anyhow. Some features that seem to be missing from a large deployment perspective: - Private repository. * When we are in development we have unannounced systems with unannounced hardware (IO cards, processors, etc.). We couldn't push our images to a public repository at that point, but would want to update the same way we eventually would in production. - Individual signing keys. * Even if an image comes from a vendor, for security reasons we would want to sign it with our own signing keys. - Large-scale roll-back. * fwupd does have roll-back at an individual system level. Can you can you do it for a whole deployment? (It seems like roll-back only works if the end-device has room to save the roll-back image?) - Continuous deployment techniques: - Test cluster deployment. * How do I create a test cluster that gets firmware updates earlier for qualification purposes? - Blue-green deployment. * How do I limit the roll-out updates so my whole deployment doesn't get updated at once? I can understand how it would look promising from a hardware vendor perspective and when I worked at a hardware vendor I often wondered "why can't we get our customers to update to our latest and greatest code quicker?" The answer is that an organization of any size and history has been bitten by a firmware update at some point and put in their own processes and infrastructure for managing firmware updates. Unless fwupd can facilitate those processes, there probably won't be much uptake from large deployments. Even if it can, there ends up being some legacy infrastructure that would need to be migrated from. --=20 Patrick Williams --69pVuxX8awAiJ7fD Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAABCAAdFiEEBGD9ii4LE9cNbqJBqwNHzC0AwRkFAl65TM8ACgkQqwNHzC0A wRkynA//aOnWTCszkyOXbmJDaKnv3AWkslO+boItnJiVjMdoYxCj5bYddSRx9ivx wh/d4nCuGzEBBsghmawnb9rAHRZkcLgKmYNUlsbC625M8abA6ApXSOUNLYzlhxYf v34b473Jq5cPWtbayRcdFnR9Nxa4cuW3BP2Ep1AjnPGdXN2IuHJnH59rh/+SKhIG Ei+LpSdAqYuNmNMAnWxeCy+iuJIt8CJd/ft7NQCyR+lyno+ybMmbyOpkLZPtwwnh OGe9U/1l6kIw8idcr0q14PO6tWe0RSVQsLhwqQJTS374qgokSRgPXIcZSkVZS4Yz gZJfp7mep5w7ViWRVenN5968jnSW5xPa5v4HE+DURRdq5ynmGUdWZxyezVV77uP4 vQqy6Bn6dGpex0y5+efy6gP5n9RyoHhLWcgh9LCtJu3lNTd4Om2gmyE7oynnoA2t am5oe9MQP+Gw7aqGcTFqBX8hHA9ywHy36MoSqm5hbQFZZIftfPUko9PgC3e6OPvP nE13D+YuJve0VsQXyM2b0hRhyxaRqHDO9rpDBbR4yjZgkAiqNDXbsLq21xbAm+E9 muHKbgF5MQCbKtTVLPNzDHvBIJEaBbWU80cYcTmUTiHvsSqZQY1SZFX1s9RcbNXR dXnTu65vISpkZRdIJmL+nryvHqm7ezQ/Q/jkikApVWXCMh150WI= =OkhH -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --69pVuxX8awAiJ7fD--