From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Dave Martin Subject: Re: [PATCH 06/14] prctl.2: ffix quotation mark tweaks Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 12:51:15 +0100 Message-ID: <20200513115115.GM21779@arm.com> References: <1589301419-24459-1-git-send-email-Dave.Martin@arm.com> <1589301419-24459-7-git-send-email-Dave.Martin@arm.com> <7afe32a5-9675-74d4-7c39-f1271d475afd@gmail.com> <20200513113949.GI21779@arm.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Return-path: Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Sender: linux-man-owner-u79uwXL29TY76Z2rM5mHXA@public.gmane.org To: "Michael Kerrisk (man-pages)" Cc: linux-man-u79uwXL29TY76Z2rM5mHXA@public.gmane.org, linux-arch-u79uwXL29TY76Z2rM5mHXA@public.gmane.org, linux-arm-kernel-IAPFreCvJWM7uuMidbF8XUB+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org List-Id: linux-arch.vger.kernel.org On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 01:46:22PM +0200, Michael Kerrisk (man-pages) wrote: > On 5/13/20 1:39 PM, Dave Martin wrote: > > On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 12:11:21PM +0200, Michael Kerrisk (man-pages) wrote: > >> Hello Dave, > >> > >> On 5/12/20 6:36 PM, Dave Martin wrote: > >>> Convert quote marks used for information terms in prose to use > >>> \(oq .. \(cq, for better graphical rendering. > >>> > >>> Signed-off-by: Dave Martin > >> > >> Again, this is a patch that I would prefer to see near the end > >> of a series, rather than in the middle. > >> > >> I'm currently agnostic about this change. But, I do not > >> want to apply this patch, since no other pages in man-pages > >> use \(oq...\(cq. > >> > >> I haven't applied this patch. Luckily, that does not prevent > >> any of the later patches applying. > > > > I'll be careful to move this sort of thing to the end of a series in > > future. > > > > This was a provocative patch, so I'm happy for it to be dropped. > > > > > > The main motivation was that ' renders to PostScript etc. as a closing > > quote, which is fine for apostrophes but not fine for an opening quote > > mark. Most of the current quotes in here are actually ", but I don't > > see an actual promise from groff that that renders as a neutral glyph > > either, so it seemed best to avoid. For now " does seem to be rendered > > with a neutral glyph (i.e., neither opening or closing). > > See my commit 11b0b31a14bd2c7dcb0cf7bc815b4c1887444a89, just pushed, > which addresses the ' issues. > > >>> --- > >>> > >>> Note, this can lead to misrendering on badly-configured systems. > >>> However, many man pages do it. > >> > >> Can you say some more about this please? > > > > Terminal character maps need to match LANG etc. in order for fancy > > characters coming out of nroff to display correctly. > > > > ssh attempts to send LANG across, but terminal sessions between systems > > that have different locales installed can be a problem, as can dumb > > serial links that don't magically pass the locale and terminal type > > settings across. > > > > The fact that I hit this problem a lot in some situations (particularly > > the serial link case) suggested to me that fancy characters are > > considered fine nowadays, but perhaps I'd need to dig into it some more > > to understand the situation fully. > > Thanks for the clarification. > > > (There are one or two ' that should really be \(aq anyway, but I'll > > try to address that separately.) > > See above. I presume that patch is what you wanted? Yup, works for me. I'll keep an eye out for other instances, but those were the ones that stood out. Cheers ---Dave From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from foss.arm.com ([217.140.110.172]:44228 "EHLO foss.arm.com" rhost-flags-OK-OK-OK-OK) by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S1725982AbgEMLvS (ORCPT ); Wed, 13 May 2020 07:51:18 -0400 Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 12:51:15 +0100 From: Dave Martin Subject: Re: [PATCH 06/14] prctl.2: ffix quotation mark tweaks Message-ID: <20200513115115.GM21779@arm.com> References: <1589301419-24459-1-git-send-email-Dave.Martin@arm.com> <1589301419-24459-7-git-send-email-Dave.Martin@arm.com> <7afe32a5-9675-74d4-7c39-f1271d475afd@gmail.com> <20200513113949.GI21779@arm.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Sender: linux-arch-owner@vger.kernel.org List-ID: To: "Michael Kerrisk (man-pages)" Cc: linux-man@vger.kernel.org, linux-arch@vger.kernel.org, linux-arm-kernel@lists.infradead.org Message-ID: <20200513115115.jpBamJXc0FvtCI9HJw8eLYc1nvtW6ujIyEamWoHaPBc@z> On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 01:46:22PM +0200, Michael Kerrisk (man-pages) wrote: > On 5/13/20 1:39 PM, Dave Martin wrote: > > On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 12:11:21PM +0200, Michael Kerrisk (man-pages) wrote: > >> Hello Dave, > >> > >> On 5/12/20 6:36 PM, Dave Martin wrote: > >>> Convert quote marks used for information terms in prose to use > >>> \(oq .. \(cq, for better graphical rendering. > >>> > >>> Signed-off-by: Dave Martin > >> > >> Again, this is a patch that I would prefer to see near the end > >> of a series, rather than in the middle. > >> > >> I'm currently agnostic about this change. But, I do not > >> want to apply this patch, since no other pages in man-pages > >> use \(oq...\(cq. > >> > >> I haven't applied this patch. Luckily, that does not prevent > >> any of the later patches applying. > > > > I'll be careful to move this sort of thing to the end of a series in > > future. > > > > This was a provocative patch, so I'm happy for it to be dropped. > > > > > > The main motivation was that ' renders to PostScript etc. as a closing > > quote, which is fine for apostrophes but not fine for an opening quote > > mark. Most of the current quotes in here are actually ", but I don't > > see an actual promise from groff that that renders as a neutral glyph > > either, so it seemed best to avoid. For now " does seem to be rendered > > with a neutral glyph (i.e., neither opening or closing). > > See my commit 11b0b31a14bd2c7dcb0cf7bc815b4c1887444a89, just pushed, > which addresses the ' issues. > > >>> --- > >>> > >>> Note, this can lead to misrendering on badly-configured systems. > >>> However, many man pages do it. > >> > >> Can you say some more about this please? > > > > Terminal character maps need to match LANG etc. in order for fancy > > characters coming out of nroff to display correctly. > > > > ssh attempts to send LANG across, but terminal sessions between systems > > that have different locales installed can be a problem, as can dumb > > serial links that don't magically pass the locale and terminal type > > settings across. > > > > The fact that I hit this problem a lot in some situations (particularly > > the serial link case) suggested to me that fancy characters are > > considered fine nowadays, but perhaps I'd need to dig into it some more > > to understand the situation fully. > > Thanks for the clarification. > > > (There are one or two ' that should really be \(aq anyway, but I'll > > try to address that separately.) > > See above. I presume that patch is what you wanted? Yup, works for me. I'll keep an eye out for other instances, but those were the ones that stood out. Cheers ---Dave From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on aws-us-west-2-korg-lkml-1.web.codeaurora.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.4 required=3.0 tests=DKIMWL_WL_HIGH,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,SIGNED_OFF_BY, SPF_HELO_NONE,SPF_PASS,URIBL_BLOCKED,USER_AGENT_SANE_1 autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 Received: from mail.kernel.org (mail.kernel.org [198.145.29.99]) by smtp.lore.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 275DCCA90AF for ; Wed, 13 May 2020 11:51:23 +0000 (UTC) Received: from bombadil.infradead.org (bombadil.infradead.org [198.137.202.133]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EB957206CC for ; Wed, 13 May 2020 11:51:22 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: mail.kernel.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lists.infradead.org header.i=@lists.infradead.org header.b="E5rDZUjd" DMARC-Filter: OpenDMARC Filter v1.3.2 mail.kernel.org EB957206CC Authentication-Results: mail.kernel.org; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=arm.com Authentication-Results: mail.kernel.org; spf=none smtp.mailfrom=linux-arm-kernel-bounces+infradead-linux-arm-kernel=archiver.kernel.org@lists.infradead.org DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lists.infradead.org; s=bombadil.20170209; h=Sender: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:Cc:List-Subscribe:List-Help:List-Post: List-Archive:List-Unsubscribe:List-Id:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:References: Message-ID:Subject:To:From:Date:Reply-To:Content-ID:Content-Description: Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID: List-Owner; bh=fVvIrqrIYTvonV+/tbJzxAJwdco7wrshYo4LELnUkA4=; b=E5rDZUjd16tvA3 LgyRsOvJs99A0DuKePIrUN6IMsIHybXmcAHJvCotH/nQQ0Rs547FDiTKjQOhJuVuMhC972NKyiK+2 hZ9H9h/vYJF2zrcqLOHdAOtP1QhkOBps/KCUyMzCvj84AaBWeO5M81IK+IL1XREXoYPF0GIkuz5ug 2aBzqbfKuzxN0n5vQFnYxqxy6jtImiyt43La48th9NiVCv5RmPcWHvsKvj/TEd1L5V2gIdSLILrzb ee7OULAU1H4o8zFHNOsy9g2L+TVnSjiIyg0t8VWT3dHt7/dAMXcwnY5xW1+R1Nztzw9pnyxpdLqRS bh7CFtnULaQH0Y/yrv5Q==; Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=bombadil.infradead.org) by bombadil.infradead.org with esmtp (Exim 4.92.3 #3 (Red Hat Linux)) id 1jYpv0-0007wC-Lg; Wed, 13 May 2020 11:51:22 +0000 Received: from foss.arm.com ([217.140.110.172]) by bombadil.infradead.org with esmtp (Exim 4.92.3 #3 (Red Hat Linux)) id 1jYpuw-0007vO-Ms for linux-arm-kernel@lists.infradead.org; Wed, 13 May 2020 11:51:20 +0000 Received: from usa-sjc-imap-foss1.foss.arm.com (unknown [10.121.207.14]) by usa-sjc-mx-foss1.foss.arm.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2503730E; Wed, 13 May 2020 04:51:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arm.com (usa-sjc-imap-foss1.foss.arm.com [10.121.207.14]) by usa-sjc-imap-foss1.foss.arm.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 744D93F71E; Wed, 13 May 2020 04:51:17 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 12:51:15 +0100 From: Dave Martin To: "Michael Kerrisk (man-pages)" Subject: Re: [PATCH 06/14] prctl.2: ffix quotation mark tweaks Message-ID: <20200513115115.GM21779@arm.com> References: <1589301419-24459-1-git-send-email-Dave.Martin@arm.com> <1589301419-24459-7-git-send-email-Dave.Martin@arm.com> <7afe32a5-9675-74d4-7c39-f1271d475afd@gmail.com> <20200513113949.GI21779@arm.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12) X-CRM114-Version: 20100106-BlameMichelson ( TRE 0.8.0 (BSD) ) MR-646709E3 X-CRM114-CacheID: sfid-20200513_045118_787860_E8A6F948 X-CRM114-Status: GOOD ( 25.64 ) X-BeenThere: linux-arm-kernel@lists.infradead.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: linux-arch@vger.kernel.org, linux-man@vger.kernel.org, linux-arm-kernel@lists.infradead.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: "linux-arm-kernel" Errors-To: linux-arm-kernel-bounces+infradead-linux-arm-kernel=archiver.kernel.org@lists.infradead.org On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 01:46:22PM +0200, Michael Kerrisk (man-pages) wrote: > On 5/13/20 1:39 PM, Dave Martin wrote: > > On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 12:11:21PM +0200, Michael Kerrisk (man-pages) wrote: > >> Hello Dave, > >> > >> On 5/12/20 6:36 PM, Dave Martin wrote: > >>> Convert quote marks used for information terms in prose to use > >>> \(oq .. \(cq, for better graphical rendering. > >>> > >>> Signed-off-by: Dave Martin > >> > >> Again, this is a patch that I would prefer to see near the end > >> of a series, rather than in the middle. > >> > >> I'm currently agnostic about this change. But, I do not > >> want to apply this patch, since no other pages in man-pages > >> use \(oq...\(cq. > >> > >> I haven't applied this patch. Luckily, that does not prevent > >> any of the later patches applying. > > > > I'll be careful to move this sort of thing to the end of a series in > > future. > > > > This was a provocative patch, so I'm happy for it to be dropped. > > > > > > The main motivation was that ' renders to PostScript etc. as a closing > > quote, which is fine for apostrophes but not fine for an opening quote > > mark. Most of the current quotes in here are actually ", but I don't > > see an actual promise from groff that that renders as a neutral glyph > > either, so it seemed best to avoid. For now " does seem to be rendered > > with a neutral glyph (i.e., neither opening or closing). > > See my commit 11b0b31a14bd2c7dcb0cf7bc815b4c1887444a89, just pushed, > which addresses the ' issues. > > >>> --- > >>> > >>> Note, this can lead to misrendering on badly-configured systems. > >>> However, many man pages do it. > >> > >> Can you say some more about this please? > > > > Terminal character maps need to match LANG etc. in order for fancy > > characters coming out of nroff to display correctly. > > > > ssh attempts to send LANG across, but terminal sessions between systems > > that have different locales installed can be a problem, as can dumb > > serial links that don't magically pass the locale and terminal type > > settings across. > > > > The fact that I hit this problem a lot in some situations (particularly > > the serial link case) suggested to me that fancy characters are > > considered fine nowadays, but perhaps I'd need to dig into it some more > > to understand the situation fully. > > Thanks for the clarification. > > > (There are one or two ' that should really be \(aq anyway, but I'll > > try to address that separately.) > > See above. I presume that patch is what you wanted? Yup, works for me. I'll keep an eye out for other instances, but those were the ones that stood out. Cheers ---Dave _______________________________________________ linux-arm-kernel mailing list linux-arm-kernel@lists.infradead.org http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-arm-kernel