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[198.145.64.163]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id t2sm14531744pja.1.2020.07.04.18.32.33 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Sat, 04 Jul 2020 18:32:33 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2020 18:32:32 -0700 From: Kees Cook To: Dave Airlie Message-ID: <202007041811.45236EE598@keescook> References: <159389297140.2210796.13590142254668787525.stgit@dwillia2-desk3.amr.corp.intel.com> <1593897917.7058.11.camel@HansenPartnership.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Cc: ksummit , Greg Kroah-Hartman , LKML , tech-board-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org, James Bottomley , Chris Mason Subject: Re: [Ksummit-discuss] [Tech-board-discuss] [PATCH] CodingStyle: Inclusive Terminology X-BeenThere: ksummit-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: ksummit-discuss-bounces@lists.linuxfoundation.org Sender: "Ksummit-discuss" On Sun, Jul 05, 2020 at 09:39:29AM +1000, Dave Airlie wrote: > I don't totally agree on that, because like the CoC discussion, people > need concrete examples. People need reasons, saying simply "be > inclusive" doesn't work. > > You say "be inclusive" people don't think about it, they just go "I'm > inclusive" and proceed, never questioning what it means to be > inclusive, they normalise inclusivity to their self image and within > their lives where they might never confront anything like this. > > I don't doubt we get the American/Ottoman/Barbery coast people and the > correct answer to those people is to tell them to examine why they > suddenly care about Barbery slavery now when they have never even > heard or worried about it before. Why haven't they submitted patches > removing slavery terminology from the kernel before? Right; this part of the patch provides a temporal explanation for "but why now?" and acts as an internal reference, instead of pointing to external[1] sources, which lack the Linux-specific contextualization. Additionally, I think it provides rebuttals to many of the specious arguments against inclusive terminology (and it could perhaps gain more, as we've already seen in this thread, against slippery slope arguments). It also attempts to acknowledge what this change in the kernel processes provides to the world in general: it's a fairly local change to make our development community less disruptive to those that would seek to join it -- it does not, and cannot, solve global racism (though that would be nice). [1] https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-knodel-terminology-01.html -- Kees Cook _______________________________________________ Ksummit-discuss mailing list Ksummit-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ksummit-discuss From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=chromium.org; s=google; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-disposition:in-reply-to; bh=59VxMmgeT9KxBaJVCFw1M3O2KmYJOpHc2AYpI19GAYA=; b=HSX7QgEPS6LoqylMa5IacECE4VnR35/Vx+maHYSJHGTCQcCzRIkD4U7zkpsFkh2bHy SVufEof2RP8fvcPSDBbLgp9y7TNnDpBL2UvMPyzzm0PxsHggABDbCVrySBllbgIfjRpm ohcBzWP7H0su5mbxwpPYthNv0bWIVhRanJVtg= Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2020 18:32:32 -0700 From: Kees Cook Message-ID: <202007041811.45236EE598@keescook> References: <159389297140.2210796.13590142254668787525.stgit@dwillia2-desk3.amr.corp.intel.com> <1593897917.7058.11.camel@HansenPartnership.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [Tech-board-discuss] [Ksummit-discuss] [PATCH] CodingStyle: Inclusive Terminology List-Id: Public TAB discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , To: Dave Airlie Cc: ksummit , Greg Kroah-Hartman , LKML , tech-board-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org, James Bottomley , Chris Mason , Linus Torvalds On Sun, Jul 05, 2020 at 09:39:29AM +1000, Dave Airlie wrote: > I don't totally agree on that, because like the CoC discussion, people > need concrete examples. People need reasons, saying simply "be > inclusive" doesn't work. > > You say "be inclusive" people don't think about it, they just go "I'm > inclusive" and proceed, never questioning what it means to be > inclusive, they normalise inclusivity to their self image and within > their lives where they might never confront anything like this. > > I don't doubt we get the American/Ottoman/Barbery coast people and the > correct answer to those people is to tell them to examine why they > suddenly care about Barbery slavery now when they have never even > heard or worried about it before. Why haven't they submitted patches > removing slavery terminology from the kernel before? Right; this part of the patch provides a temporal explanation for "but why now?" and acts as an internal reference, instead of pointing to external[1] sources, which lack the Linux-specific contextualization. Additionally, I think it provides rebuttals to many of the specious arguments against inclusive terminology (and it could perhaps gain more, as we've already seen in this thread, against slippery slope arguments). It also attempts to acknowledge what this change in the kernel processes provides to the world in general: it's a fairly local change to make our development community less disruptive to those that would seek to join it -- it does not, and cannot, solve global racism (though that would be nice). [1] https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-knodel-terminology-01.html -- Kees Cook From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on aws-us-west-2-korg-lkml-1.web.codeaurora.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.9 required=3.0 tests=DKIMWL_WL_HIGH,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID,DKIM_VALID_AU,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, SPF_HELO_NONE,SPF_PASS autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 Received: from mail.kernel.org (mail.kernel.org [198.145.29.99]) by smtp.lore.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F202C433E0 for ; Sun, 5 Jul 2020 01:32:39 +0000 (UTC) Received: from vger.kernel.org (vger.kernel.org [23.128.96.18]) by mail.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE474207CD for ; Sun, 5 Jul 2020 01:32:38 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: mail.kernel.org; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=chromium.org header.i=@chromium.org header.b="HSX7QgEP" Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S1728165AbgGEBcf (ORCPT ); Sat, 4 Jul 2020 21:32:35 -0400 Received: from lindbergh.monkeyblade.net ([23.128.96.19]:55270 "EHLO lindbergh.monkeyblade.net" rhost-flags-OK-OK-OK-OK) by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S1727922AbgGEBce (ORCPT ); Sat, 4 Jul 2020 21:32:34 -0400 Received: from mail-pg1-x542.google.com (mail-pg1-x542.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::542]) by lindbergh.monkeyblade.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B29F6C061794 for ; Sat, 4 Jul 2020 18:32:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg1-x542.google.com with SMTP id d4so16766961pgk.4 for ; Sat, 04 Jul 2020 18:32:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=chromium.org; s=google; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-disposition:in-reply-to; bh=59VxMmgeT9KxBaJVCFw1M3O2KmYJOpHc2AYpI19GAYA=; b=HSX7QgEPS6LoqylMa5IacECE4VnR35/Vx+maHYSJHGTCQcCzRIkD4U7zkpsFkh2bHy SVufEof2RP8fvcPSDBbLgp9y7TNnDpBL2UvMPyzzm0PxsHggABDbCVrySBllbgIfjRpm ohcBzWP7H0su5mbxwpPYthNv0bWIVhRanJVtg= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references :mime-version:content-disposition:in-reply-to; bh=59VxMmgeT9KxBaJVCFw1M3O2KmYJOpHc2AYpI19GAYA=; b=HkrH+dzPkG/fvpyVtZNOd8wGPGiLeRvsKQu0ct+ACVGD518mWmq7ugiKH8n0pf3TE3 g7Sy47gVxpvg3tfeZ3QRpBB4vQ9l0XTcsZfBk8//x2ksDv2lVIse0GQ8u7cgszmlNzr+ 1NVToTjQFHm75+72erZ6iVbWFFeZ0DrbW/TAULNqDnPye2H3lU84cC7/+j5S0vEloDoI YtvjuSdN88BG5nDttDB3e54bhrdanu00oAYj2dg6iyaAHgvzBstfb7I2x/C//2FRRFvR /4vBq4ciD6Wjlq8Yy9tNEUM+JSheJnqm7HsSribfcjzpGFcHM7WYlzFQGDyy7S9ewv44 zqMg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5330O/r9cRVmAyT+dg6lIs7424eHpxzlEjnSUcoKLTJjCDjG/4zo 2gYFQOmIV2e4X/hYYG+XCTIwmw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJydgdPeV3xrmm7Cro5fgXstCUAh4/jRr0i8EJMDzDXeuUqNuh3g1Nsudc/hVo0x7aydTHTxlQ== X-Received: by 2002:a63:e24d:: with SMTP id y13mr29777761pgj.248.1593912754183; Sat, 04 Jul 2020 18:32:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from www.outflux.net (smtp.outflux.net. [198.145.64.163]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id t2sm14531744pja.1.2020.07.04.18.32.33 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Sat, 04 Jul 2020 18:32:33 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2020 18:32:32 -0700 From: Kees Cook To: Dave Airlie Cc: James Bottomley , Dan Williams , Linus Torvalds , Chris Mason , Greg Kroah-Hartman , tech-board-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org, LKML , ksummit Subject: Re: [Ksummit-discuss] [Tech-board-discuss] [PATCH] CodingStyle: Inclusive Terminology Message-ID: <202007041811.45236EE598@keescook> References: <159389297140.2210796.13590142254668787525.stgit@dwillia2-desk3.amr.corp.intel.com> <1593897917.7058.11.camel@HansenPartnership.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org On Sun, Jul 05, 2020 at 09:39:29AM +1000, Dave Airlie wrote: > I don't totally agree on that, because like the CoC discussion, people > need concrete examples. People need reasons, saying simply "be > inclusive" doesn't work. > > You say "be inclusive" people don't think about it, they just go "I'm > inclusive" and proceed, never questioning what it means to be > inclusive, they normalise inclusivity to their self image and within > their lives where they might never confront anything like this. > > I don't doubt we get the American/Ottoman/Barbery coast people and the > correct answer to those people is to tell them to examine why they > suddenly care about Barbery slavery now when they have never even > heard or worried about it before. Why haven't they submitted patches > removing slavery terminology from the kernel before? Right; this part of the patch provides a temporal explanation for "but why now?" and acts as an internal reference, instead of pointing to external[1] sources, which lack the Linux-specific contextualization. Additionally, I think it provides rebuttals to many of the specious arguments against inclusive terminology (and it could perhaps gain more, as we've already seen in this thread, against slippery slope arguments). It also attempts to acknowledge what this change in the kernel processes provides to the world in general: it's a fairly local change to make our development community less disruptive to those that would seek to join it -- it does not, and cannot, solve global racism (though that would be nice). [1] https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-knodel-terminology-01.html -- Kees Cook