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h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:From; b=iIlTIgm1Aik/z6QQROo3wt9iJVpDdvg2MnZhovSOh2B7EtM+YuYI+0QWr/3eTfOiB KOlUPFLn3y02tmJbMEs+p7usOW8gVlVttuUPMizP7QNCD/DJS7Y4PcZ1KU8KVrnomu c03J1o18JljXK4F14qbxCbOPKkPghGt7iuxWdGuc= Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2020 17:06:36 +0300 From: Laurent Pinchart To: Chris Mason Message-ID: <20200706140636.GA19803@pendragon.ideasonboard.com> References: <159389297140.2210796.13590142254668787525.stgit@dwillia2-desk3.amr.corp.intel.com> <20200705045505.GA2962@1wt.eu> <798B0FBF-D7A8-4631-8581-5D199DA50FF9@fb.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <798B0FBF-D7A8-4631-8581-5D199DA50FF9@fb.com> Cc: "ksummit-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org" , Greg Kroah-Hartman , "linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org" , "tech-board-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org" , Chris Mason , Willy Tarreau Subject: Re: [Ksummit-discuss] [PATCH] CodingStyle: Inclusive Terminology X-BeenThere: ksummit-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Errors-To: ksummit-discuss-bounces@lists.linuxfoundation.org Sender: "Ksummit-discuss" SGkgQ2hyaXMsCgpPbiBNb24sIEp1bCAwNiwgMjAyMCBhdCAxMjo0NTozNFBNICswMDAwLCBDaHJp cyBNYXNvbiB2aWEgS3N1bW1pdC1kaXNjdXNzIHdyb3RlOgo+IE9uIDUgSnVsIDIwMjAsIGF0IDA6 NTUsIFdpbGx5IFRhcnJlYXUgd3JvdGU6Cj4gPiBPbiBTYXQsIEp1bCAwNCwgMjAyMCBhdCAwMTow Mjo1MVBNIC0wNzAwLCBEYW4gV2lsbGlhbXMgd3JvdGU6Cj4gPj4gK05vbi1pbmNsdXNpdmUgdGVy bWlub2xvZ3kgaGFzIHRoYXQgc2FtZSBkaXN0cmFjdGluZyBlZmZlY3Qgd2hpY2ggaXMgd2h5Cj4g Pj4gK2l0IGlzIGEgc3R5bGUgaXNzdWUgZm9yIExpbnV4LCBpdCBpbmp1cmVzIGRldmVsb3BlciBl ZmZpY2llbmN5Lgo+ID4KPiA+IEknbSBwZXJzb25hbGx5IHRoaW5raW5nIHRoYXQgZm9yIGEgbm9u LW5hdGl2ZSBzcGVha2VyIGl0J3MgYWxyZWFkeQo+ID4gZGlmZmljdWx0IHRvIGZpbmQgdGhlIGJl c3QgdGVybSB0byBkZXNjcmliZSBzb21ldGhpbmcsIGJ1dCBoYXZpbmcgdG8KPiA+IGFwcGx5IGFu IGV4dHJhIGxldmVsIG9mIGZpbHRlcmluZyBvbiB0aGUgZm91bmQgd29yZHMgdG8gZmlndXJlIHdo ZXRoZXIKPiA+IHRoZXkgYXJlIGFsbG93ZWQgYnkgdGhlIGxhbmd1YWdlIHBvbGljZSBpcyBldmVu IG1vcmUgZGlmZmljdWx0Lgo+IAo+IFNpbmNlIG91ciBkaXNjdXNzaW9ucyBhcmUgcHVibGljLCB3 ZeKAmXZlIGFsd2F5cyBoYWQgdG8gZGVhbCB3aXRoIAo+IGNvbW1lbnRzIGZyb20gcGVvcGxlIG91 dHNpZGUgdGhlIGNvbW11bml0eSBvbiBhIHJhbmdlIG9mIHRvcGljcy4gIEJ1dCAKPiBpbnNpZGUg dGhlIGtlcm5lbCwgaXTigJlzIGp1c3QgYSBncm91cCBvZiBkZXZlbG9wZXJzIHRyeWluZyB0byBo ZWxwIGVhY2ggCj4gb3RoZXIgcHJvZHVjZSB0aGUgYmVzdCBxdWFsaXR5IG9mIGNvZGUuICBXZeKA mXZlIGdvdCBhIGxvbmcgaGlzdG9yeSAKPiB0b2dldGhlciBhbmQgaW4gZ2VuZXJhbCBJIHRoaW5r IHdl4oCZcmUgcHJldHR5IGdvb2QgYXQgYXNzdW1pbmcgZ29vZCAKPiBpbnRlbnQuCj4gCj4gPiAq VGhpcyogaW5qdXJlcyBkZXZlbG9wZXJzIGVmZmljaWVuY3kuIFdoYXQgY291bGQgaW1wcm92ZSBk ZXZlbG9wZXJzIGVmZmljaWVuY3kKPiA+IGlzIHRvIHRha2UgY2FyZSBvZiByZW1vdmluZyAqYWxs KiBpZGlvbWF0aWMgb3IgY3VsdHVyYWwgd29yZHMgdGhlbi4gRm9yCj4gPiBleGFtcGxlIEkndmUg YmVlbiBwYXJ0aWNpcGF0aW5nIHRvIHByb2plY3RzIHVzaW5nIHRoZSB0ZXJtICJibHVlcHJpbnQi LAo+ID4gSSBkaWRuJ3QgdW5kZXJzdGFuZCB3aGF0IHRoYXQgbWVhbnQuIEl0IHdhcyBvbmNlIGV4 cGxhaW5lZCB0byBtZSBhbmQKPiA+IGdpdmVuIHRoYXQgaXQgaGFkIG5vIGxvZ2ljYWwgcmVhc29u IGZvciBiZWluZyBjYWxsZWQgdGhpcyB3YXksIEkgbm93Cj4gPiBmb3Jnb3QuIElmIHdlIGZvbGxv dyB5b3VyIHJlYXNvbmluZywgU3VjaCB3b3JkcyBzaG91bGQgYmUgYmFubmVkIGZvcgo+ID4gZXhh Y3RseSB0aGUgc2FtZSByZWFzb25zLiBTYW1lIGZvciBjb2xvcnMgdGhhdCBwcm9iYWJseSBkb24n dCBtZWFuCj4gPiBhbnl0aGluZyB0byB0aG9zZSBib3JuIGJsaW5kLgo+ID4KPiA+IEZvciBleGFt cGxlIGlmIGluIG15IGxvY2FsIGN1bHR1cmUgd2UgZWF0IHRvbWF0b2VzIGF0IHN0YXJ0ZXJzIGFu ZAo+ID4gYXBwbGVzIGZvciBkZXNzZXJ0LCBpdCBjb3VsZCBiZSBjb252ZW5pZW50IGZvciBtZSB0 byB1c2UgInRvbWF0byIgYW5kCj4gPiAiYXBwbGUiIGFzIGxpc3QgZWxlbWVudHMgdG8gbmFtZSB0 aGUgcG9pbnRlcnMgbGVhZGluZyB0byB0aGUgYmVnaW5uaW5nCj4gPiBhbmQgdGhlIGVuZCBvZiB0 aGUgbGlzdCwgYW5kIGl0IG1pZ2h0IHNvdW5kIG9idmlvdXMgdG8gbWFueSBwZW9wbGUsIGJ1dAo+ ID4gbm90IGF0IGFsbCBmb3IgbWFueSBvdGhlcnMuCj4gPgo+ID4gTWF5YmUgaW5zdGVhZCBvZiBw cm92aWRpbmcgYW4gZXhwbGljaXQgbGlzdCBvZiBhIGZldyB3b3JkcyBpdCBzaG91bGQKPiA+IHNp bXBseSBzYXkgdGhhdCB0ZXJtcyB0aGF0IHRha2UgdGhlaXIgcm9vdHMgaW4gdGhlIG5vbi10ZWNo bmljYWwgd29ybGQKPiA+IGFuZCB3aG9zZSBtZWFuaW5nIGNhbiBvbmx5IGJlIHVuZGVyc3Rvb2Qg YmFzZWQgb24gaGlzdG9yeSBvciBsb2NhbAo+ID4gY3VsdHVyZSBvdWdodCB0byBiZSBhdm9pZGVk LCBiZWNhdXNlICp0aGF0KiBhY3R1YWxseSBpcyB0aGUgcmVhbAo+ID4gcm9vdCBjYXVzZSBvZiB0 aGUgcHJvYmxlbSB5b3UncmUgdHJ5aW5nIHRvIGFkZHJlc3MuCj4gCj4gSeKAmWQgZGVmaW5pdGVs eSBhZ3JlZSB0aGF0IGl04oCZcyBhIGdvb2QgZ29hbCB0byBrZWVwIG91dCBub24tdGVjaG5pY2Fs IAo+IHRlcm1zLiAgRXZlbiB0aG91Z2ggd2UgYWxyZWFkeSB0cnksIGV2ZXJ5IHN1YnN5c3RlbSBo YXMgaXRzIG93biBzZXQgb2YgCj4gcGF0dGVybnMgdGhhdCByZWZsZWN0IHRoZSBtb3N0IGZyZXF1 ZW50IGNvbnRyaWJ1dG9ycy4KClRoYXQncyBhbiBpbnRlcmVzdGluZyBwb2ludCwgYmVjYXVzZSB0 byBtZSwgaXQncyB0aGUgZXhhY3Qgb3Bwb3NpdGUuIE9uZQpvZiB0aGUgaW50ZWxsZWN0dWFsIHJl d2FyZHMgSSBmaW5kIGluIHdvcmtpbmcgd2l0aCB0aGUga2VybmVsIGlzIHRoYXQKb3VyIGNvbW11 bml0eSBpcyBpbnRlcm5hdGlvbmFsIGFuZCBtdWx0aWN1bHR1cmFsLCBhbGxvd2luZyBtZSB0byBs ZWFybgphYm91dCBvdGhlciBjdWx0dXJlcy4gQWltaW5nIGZvciB0aGUgbG93ZXN0IGNvbW1vbiBk ZW5vbWluYXRvciBzZWVtcyB0bwptZSB0byBiZSBjbG9zZXIgdG8gZXJhc2luZyBjdWx0dXJhbCBk aWZmZXJlbmNlcyB0aGFuIGluY2x1ZGluZyB0aGVtLgoKLS0gClJlZ2FyZHMsCgpMYXVyZW50IFBp bmNoYXJ0Cl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fCktz dW1taXQtZGlzY3VzcyBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QKS3N1bW1pdC1kaXNjdXNzQGxpc3RzLmxpbnV4Zm91 bmRhdGlvbi5vcmcKaHR0cHM6Ly9saXN0cy5saW51eGZvdW5kYXRpb24ub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlz dGluZm8va3N1bW1pdC1kaXNjdXNzCg== From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=ideasonboard.com; s=mail; t=1594044400; bh=Y0Dxs8yHGnMAS7O4nFNLcSPnhsF1XRUFurGKDDc2C1Y=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:From; b=iIlTIgm1Aik/z6QQROo3wt9iJVpDdvg2MnZhovSOh2B7EtM+YuYI+0QWr/3eTfOiB KOlUPFLn3y02tmJbMEs+p7usOW8gVlVttuUPMizP7QNCD/DJS7Y4PcZ1KU8KVrnomu c03J1o18JljXK4F14qbxCbOPKkPghGt7iuxWdGuc= Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2020 17:06:36 +0300 From: Laurent Pinchart Message-ID: <20200706140636.GA19803@pendragon.ideasonboard.com> References: <159389297140.2210796.13590142254668787525.stgit@dwillia2-desk3.amr.corp.intel.com> <20200705045505.GA2962@1wt.eu> <798B0FBF-D7A8-4631-8581-5D199DA50FF9@fb.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <798B0FBF-D7A8-4631-8581-5D199DA50FF9@fb.com> Subject: Re: [Tech-board-discuss] [Ksummit-discuss] [PATCH] CodingStyle: Inclusive Terminology List-Id: Public TAB discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , To: Chris Mason Cc: "ksummit-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org" , Greg Kroah-Hartman , "linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org" , "tech-board-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org" , Chris Mason , Willy Tarreau Hi Chris, On Mon, Jul 06, 2020 at 12:45:34PM +0000, Chris Mason via Ksummit-discuss wrote: > On 5 Jul 2020, at 0:55, Willy Tarreau wrote: > > On Sat, Jul 04, 2020 at 01:02:51PM -0700, Dan Williams wrote: > >> +Non-inclusive terminology has that same distracting effect which is why > >> +it is a style issue for Linux, it injures developer efficiency. > > > > I'm personally thinking that for a non-native speaker it's already > > difficult to find the best term to describe something, but having to > > apply an extra level of filtering on the found words to figure whether > > they are allowed by the language police is even more difficult. > > Since our discussions are public, we’ve always had to deal with > comments from people outside the community on a range of topics. But > inside the kernel, it’s just a group of developers trying to help each > other produce the best quality of code. We’ve got a long history > together and in general I think we’re pretty good at assuming good > intent. > > > *This* injures developers efficiency. What could improve developers efficiency > > is to take care of removing *all* idiomatic or cultural words then. For > > example I've been participating to projects using the term "blueprint", > > I didn't understand what that meant. It was once explained to me and > > given that it had no logical reason for being called this way, I now > > forgot. If we follow your reasoning, Such words should be banned for > > exactly the same reasons. Same for colors that probably don't mean > > anything to those born blind. > > > > For example if in my local culture we eat tomatoes at starters and > > apples for dessert, it could be convenient for me to use "tomato" and > > "apple" as list elements to name the pointers leading to the beginning > > and the end of the list, and it might sound obvious to many people, but > > not at all for many others. > > > > Maybe instead of providing an explicit list of a few words it should > > simply say that terms that take their roots in the non-technical world > > and whose meaning can only be understood based on history or local > > culture ought to be avoided, because *that* actually is the real > > root cause of the problem you're trying to address. > > I’d definitely agree that it’s a good goal to keep out non-technical > terms. Even though we already try, every subsystem has its own set of > patterns that reflect the most frequent contributors. That's an interesting point, because to me, it's the exact opposite. One of the intellectual rewards I find in working with the kernel is that our community is international and multicultural, allowing me to learn about other cultures. Aiming for the lowest common denominator seems to me to be closer to erasing cultural differences than including them. -- Regards, Laurent Pinchart From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on aws-us-west-2-korg-lkml-1.web.codeaurora.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=3.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,SPF_HELO_NONE, SPF_PASS autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 Received: from mail.kernel.org (mail.kernel.org [198.145.29.99]) by smtp.lore.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5340AC433DF for ; Mon, 6 Jul 2020 14:06:45 +0000 (UTC) Received: from vger.kernel.org (vger.kernel.org [23.128.96.18]) by mail.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29BAE20720 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 2020 14:06:45 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: mail.kernel.org; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ideasonboard.com header.i=@ideasonboard.com header.b="iIlTIgm1" Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S1729228AbgGFOGo (ORCPT ); Mon, 6 Jul 2020 10:06:44 -0400 Received: from lindbergh.monkeyblade.net ([23.128.96.19]:52314 "EHLO lindbergh.monkeyblade.net" rhost-flags-OK-OK-OK-OK) by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S1729171AbgGFOGn (ORCPT ); Mon, 6 Jul 2020 10:06:43 -0400 Received: from perceval.ideasonboard.com (perceval.ideasonboard.com [IPv6:2001:4b98:dc2:55:216:3eff:fef7:d647]) by lindbergh.monkeyblade.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 433BEC061755 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 2020 07:06:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pendragon.ideasonboard.com (81-175-216-236.bb.dnainternet.fi [81.175.216.236]) by perceval.ideasonboard.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2C02E97E; Mon, 6 Jul 2020 16:06:40 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=ideasonboard.com; s=mail; t=1594044400; bh=Y0Dxs8yHGnMAS7O4nFNLcSPnhsF1XRUFurGKDDc2C1Y=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:From; b=iIlTIgm1Aik/z6QQROo3wt9iJVpDdvg2MnZhovSOh2B7EtM+YuYI+0QWr/3eTfOiB KOlUPFLn3y02tmJbMEs+p7usOW8gVlVttuUPMizP7QNCD/DJS7Y4PcZ1KU8KVrnomu c03J1o18JljXK4F14qbxCbOPKkPghGt7iuxWdGuc= Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2020 17:06:36 +0300 From: Laurent Pinchart To: Chris Mason Cc: Willy Tarreau , "ksummit-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org" , Greg Kroah-Hartman , "linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org" , "tech-board-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org" , Chris Mason Subject: Re: [Ksummit-discuss] [PATCH] CodingStyle: Inclusive Terminology Message-ID: <20200706140636.GA19803@pendragon.ideasonboard.com> References: <159389297140.2210796.13590142254668787525.stgit@dwillia2-desk3.amr.corp.intel.com> <20200705045505.GA2962@1wt.eu> <798B0FBF-D7A8-4631-8581-5D199DA50FF9@fb.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <798B0FBF-D7A8-4631-8581-5D199DA50FF9@fb.com> Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Hi Chris, On Mon, Jul 06, 2020 at 12:45:34PM +0000, Chris Mason via Ksummit-discuss wrote: > On 5 Jul 2020, at 0:55, Willy Tarreau wrote: > > On Sat, Jul 04, 2020 at 01:02:51PM -0700, Dan Williams wrote: > >> +Non-inclusive terminology has that same distracting effect which is why > >> +it is a style issue for Linux, it injures developer efficiency. > > > > I'm personally thinking that for a non-native speaker it's already > > difficult to find the best term to describe something, but having to > > apply an extra level of filtering on the found words to figure whether > > they are allowed by the language police is even more difficult. > > Since our discussions are public, we’ve always had to deal with > comments from people outside the community on a range of topics. But > inside the kernel, it’s just a group of developers trying to help each > other produce the best quality of code. We’ve got a long history > together and in general I think we’re pretty good at assuming good > intent. > > > *This* injures developers efficiency. What could improve developers efficiency > > is to take care of removing *all* idiomatic or cultural words then. For > > example I've been participating to projects using the term "blueprint", > > I didn't understand what that meant. It was once explained to me and > > given that it had no logical reason for being called this way, I now > > forgot. If we follow your reasoning, Such words should be banned for > > exactly the same reasons. Same for colors that probably don't mean > > anything to those born blind. > > > > For example if in my local culture we eat tomatoes at starters and > > apples for dessert, it could be convenient for me to use "tomato" and > > "apple" as list elements to name the pointers leading to the beginning > > and the end of the list, and it might sound obvious to many people, but > > not at all for many others. > > > > Maybe instead of providing an explicit list of a few words it should > > simply say that terms that take their roots in the non-technical world > > and whose meaning can only be understood based on history or local > > culture ought to be avoided, because *that* actually is the real > > root cause of the problem you're trying to address. > > I’d definitely agree that it’s a good goal to keep out non-technical > terms. Even though we already try, every subsystem has its own set of > patterns that reflect the most frequent contributors. That's an interesting point, because to me, it's the exact opposite. One of the intellectual rewards I find in working with the kernel is that our community is international and multicultural, allowing me to learn about other cultures. Aiming for the lowest common denominator seems to me to be closer to erasing cultural differences than including them. -- Regards, Laurent Pinchart