From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on aws-us-west-2-korg-lkml-1.web.codeaurora.org Received: from ws5-mx01.kavi.com (ws5-mx01.kavi.com [34.193.7.191]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.lore.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E1F83C678D5 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2023 12:03:16 +0000 (UTC) Received: from lists.oasis-open.org (oasis.ws5.connectedcommunity.org [10.110.1.242]) by ws5-mx01.kavi.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1FB37801 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2023 12:03:13 +0000 (UTC) Received: from lists.oasis-open.org (oasis-open.org [10.110.1.242]) by lists.oasis-open.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6E1E9866FD for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2023 12:03:13 +0000 (UTC) Received: from host09.ws5.connectedcommunity.org (host09.ws5.connectedcommunity.org [10.110.1.97]) by lists.oasis-open.org (Postfix) with QMQP id D7BE79866ED; Wed, 8 Mar 2023 12:03:13 +0000 (UTC) Mailing-List: contact virtio-comment-help@lists.oasis-open.org; run by ezmlm List-ID: Sender: Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Received: from lists.oasis-open.org (oasis-open.org [10.110.1.242]) by lists.oasis-open.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BADEA9866FB for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2023 12:03:13 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at kavi.com X-MC-Unique: 6LG6f_W0Pt2Kv5hIPiADug-1 X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; t=1678276989; h=in-reply-to:content-disposition:mime-version:references:message-id :subject:cc:to:from:date:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=VCO/8frcPDT9V8sQjkwGeU6d734KlF0GSCdc4hbMdZU=; b=Mxx6E7DmGcPDrKFCUXSUQvcftyUTets/hyFviPKOOp3FsYMBaV3kZUc5sP+Zj+QuP4 Of7D1Liow2QiTByLEbza9J2nSofq3CSpxhrhf/IFeHYMhXzrlI0Rf8TJQhfLmYTPaJ94 lrs1BfKgt6oOmkDl2ojGMRVrl/MWMy4kt3XMPQLfe+UE4RkPEaZ/prcgcAoiCKRajjn2 cGNibR3zdv0Vl2cqVOiSidZ5c7Zis2T5RU0CtSZ3XJvXYyb66idHWEaXcr+ES2yKkCzz YVW6vtm/HLj4tK6T1KuCeq/ZqOCxKS1/vBxo/qH6b/HmQXi2K9Sxq5SrEBP3WQl+P9gI elOg== X-Gm-Message-State: AO0yUKWfef32AXtpxV6Wr5b6N8vM/XyQmmYueGoINLr98tOk9AnTf5gD qfRoMSREK8tsLwrgJbxsWHBTx9hsaAmb9dIlh1vVc8AXCtFjNodCTOD+DazKppEu/XGHQcb6Y+w Dk8+1V843nd14Ov2jMGxNTZGGwf/bkOxyCg== X-Received: by 2002:a17:907:c08b:b0:8ae:b083:6ceb with SMTP id st11-20020a170907c08b00b008aeb0836cebmr20617368ejc.72.1678276989089; Wed, 08 Mar 2023 04:03:09 -0800 (PST) X-Google-Smtp-Source: AK7set8ljxUf/WJQlmJ3b85B8kLsNyZIJww0dY3vLmcZR+v0YNb9scgrN1D+8fCvT57X8Wklvms3rg== X-Received: by 2002:a17:907:c08b:b0:8ae:b083:6ceb with SMTP id st11-20020a170907c08b00b008aeb0836cebmr20617332ejc.72.1678276988793; Wed, 08 Mar 2023 04:03:08 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2023 07:03:03 -0500 From: "Michael S. Tsirkin" To: Jiri Pirko Cc: Stefan Hajnoczi , virtio-comment@lists.oasis-open.org, virtio-dev@lists.oasis-open.org, jasowang@redhat.com, cohuck@redhat.com, sgarzare@redhat.com, nrupal.jani@intel.com, Piotr.Uminski@intel.com, hang.yuan@intel.com, virtio@lists.oasis-open.org, Zhu Lingshan , pasic@linux.ibm.com, Shahaf Shuler , Parav Pandit , Max Gurtovoy Message-ID: <20230308070015-mutt-send-email-mst@kernel.org> References: <910b3607a5f255134d30b3e1233e564f564eafb8.1677761896.git.mst@redhat.com> <20230302201011.GB2554028@fedora> <20230302185214-mutt-send-email-mst@kernel.org> <20230303131337.GA2866370@fedora> <20230303081515-mutt-send-email-mst@kernel.org> <20230303202314.GB2901137@fedora> MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: X-Mimecast-Spam-Score: 0 X-Mimecast-Originator: redhat.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Subject: [virtio-comment] Re: [virtio-dev] Re: [PATCH v10 03/10] admin: introduce group administration commands On Tue, Mar 07, 2023 at 12:31:51PM +0100, Jiri Pirko wrote: > Fri, Mar 03, 2023 at 09:23:14PM CET, stefanha@redhat.com wrote: > >On Fri, Mar 03, 2023 at 08:18:43AM -0500, Michael S. Tsirkin wrote: > >> On Fri, Mar 03, 2023 at 08:13:37AM -0500, Stefan Hajnoczi wrote: > >> > On Thu, Mar 02, 2023 at 06:57:24PM -0500, Michael S. Tsirkin wrote: > >> > > On Thu, Mar 02, 2023 at 03:10:11PM -0500, Stefan Hajnoczi wrote: > >> > > > On Thu, Mar 02, 2023 at 08:05:02AM -0500, Michael S. Tsirkin wrote: > >> > > > > This introduces a general structure for group administration commands, > >> > > > > used to control device groups through their owner. > >> > > > > > >> > > > > Following patches will introduce specific commands and an interface for > >> > > > > submitting these commands to the owner. > >> > > > > > >> > > > > Signed-off-by: Max Gurtovoy > >> > > > > Signed-off-by: Michael S. Tsirkin > >> > > > > --- > >> > > > > admin.tex | 108 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > >> > > > > introduction.tex | 3 ++ > >> > > > > 2 files changed, 111 insertions(+) > >> > > > > > >> > > > > diff --git a/admin.tex b/admin.tex > >> > > > > index 3dc47be..7e28b77 100644 > >> > > > > --- a/admin.tex > >> > > > > +++ b/admin.tex > >> > > > > @@ -46,4 +46,112 @@ \section{Device groups}\label{sec:Basic Facilities of a Virtio Device / Device g > >> > > > > PCI transport (see \ref{sec:Virtio Transport Options / Virtio Over PCI Bus}). > >> > > > > \end{description} > >> > > > > > >> > > > > +\subsection{Group administration commands}\label{sec:Basic Facilities of a Virtio Device / Device groups / Group administration commands} > >> > > > > > >> > > > > +The driver sends group administration commands to the owner device of > >> > > > > >> > > > I notice that the terminology is simply "the driver". "Owner driver" > >> > > > and "group member driver" might be clearer because there will be two > >> > > > (possibly different) drivers involved. > >> > > > >> > > Hmm I don't really want to repeat owner everywhere. > >> > > I will clarify that in this section simple "driver" and "device" are > >> > > owner, "member device" and "member driver" is always called explicitly. > >> > > >> > Sounds good. > >> > > >> > > > > +a group to control member devices of the group. > >> > > > > +This mechanism can > >> > > > > +be used, for example, to configure a member device before it is > >> > > > > +initialized by its driver. > >> > > > > +\footnote{The term "administration" is intended to be interpreted > >> > > > > +widely to include any kind of control. See specific commands > >> > > > > +for detail.} > >> > > > > + > >> > > > > +All the group administration commands are of the following form: > >> > > > > + > >> > > > > +\begin{lstlisting} > >> > > > > +struct virtio_admin_cmd { > >> > > > > + /* Device-readable part */ > >> > > > > + le16 opcode; > >> > > > > + /* > >> > > > > + * 1 - SR-IOV > >> > > > > + * 2 - 65535 reserved > >> > > > > + */ > >> > > > > + le16 group_type; > >> > > > > + /* unused, reserved for future extensions */ > >> > > > > + u8 reserved1[12]; > >> > > > > + le64 group_member_id; > >> > > > > + u8 command_specific_data[]; > >> > > > > + > >> > > > > + /* Device-writable part */ > >> > > > > + le16 status; > >> > > > > + le16 status_qualifier; > >> > > > > + /* unused, reserved for future extensions */ > >> > > > > + u8 reserved2[4]; > >> > > > > + u8 command_specific_result[]; > >> > > > > +}; > >> > > > > +\end{lstlisting} > >> > > > > + > >> > > > > +For all commands, \field{opcode}, \field{group_type} and if > >> > > > > +necessary \field{group_member_id} and \field{command_specific_data} are > >> > > > > +set by the driver, and the owner device sets \field{status} and if > >> > > > > +needed \field{status_qualifier} and > >> > > > > +\field{command_specific_result}. > >> > > > > + > >> > > > > +Generally, any unused device-readable fields are set to zero by the driver > >> > > > > +and ignored by the device. Any unused device-writeable fields are set to zero > >> > > > > +by the device and ignored by the driver. > >> > > > > + > >> > > > > +\field{opcode} specifies the command. The valid > >> > > > > +values for \field{opcode} can be found in the following table: > >> > > > > + > >> > > > > +\begin{tabular}{|l|l|} > >> > > > > +\hline > >> > > > > +opcode & Name & Command Description \\ > >> > > > > +\hline \hline > >> > > > > +0x0000 - 0x7FFF & - & Group administration commands \\ > >> > > > > +\hline > >> > > > > +0x8000 - 0xFFFF & - & Reserved \\ > >> > > > > +\hline > >> > > > > +\end{tabular} > >> > > > > >> > > > I thought all commands are "group administration commands" but this > >> > > > table makes it look like they are just a subset (0x0000 - 0x7FFF) of > >> > > > group administration commands, which is a paradox. > >> > > > >> > > Well the rest are reserved, maybe we will have more command types who > >> > > knows. No? > >> > > >> > I see. Does that mean the reserved commands don't need to be in the same > >> > format as struct virtio_admin_cmd? > >> > >> I am not good in predicting future ... > >> > >> > The entire section is called "Group administration commands" but I get > >> > the impression it's talking both about admin virtqueue commands in > >> > general and specifically about group administration commands. > >> > > >> > Is it possible to structure this as follows: > >> > > >> > Admin Commands > >> > ...common stuff... > >> > Group Administration Commands (0x0000-0x7fff) > >> > ...specific to group administration commands... > >> > Reserved (0x8000-0xffff) > >> > >> What if I just write it like this: > >> > >> > >> > > > > +\hline \hline > >> > > > > +0x0000 - 0x7FFF & - & commands using struct virtio_admin_cmd \\ > >> > > > > +\hline > >> > > > > +0x8000 - 0xFFFF & - & Reserved for future commands (possibly using a different structure) \\ > >> > >> > >> will this address the comment? > > > >Yes, thanks. > > What is the reason for having this table? I fail to see it. I think it's more a place-holder table in which follow-up patches add entries. I'll check and see if we can get rid of it. > > > > >Stefan > This publicly archived list offers a means to provide input to the OASIS Virtual I/O Device (VIRTIO) TC. In order to verify user consent to the Feedback License terms and to minimize spam in the list archive, subscription is required before posting. Subscribe: virtio-comment-subscribe@lists.oasis-open.org Unsubscribe: virtio-comment-unsubscribe@lists.oasis-open.org List help: virtio-comment-help@lists.oasis-open.org List archive: https://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/virtio-comment/ Feedback License: https://www.oasis-open.org/who/ipr/feedback_license.pdf List Guidelines: https://www.oasis-open.org/policies-guidelines/mailing-lists Committee: https://www.oasis-open.org/committees/virtio/ Join OASIS: https://www.oasis-open.org/join/ From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on aws-us-west-2-korg-lkml-1.web.codeaurora.org Received: from ws5-mx01.kavi.com (ws5-mx01.kavi.com [34.193.7.191]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.lore.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2684FC678D5 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2023 12:03:13 +0000 (UTC) Received: from lists.oasis-open.org (oasis.ws5.connectedcommunity.org [10.110.1.242]) by ws5-mx01.kavi.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 874FD41A05 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2023 12:03:12 +0000 (UTC) Received: from lists.oasis-open.org (oasis-open.org [10.110.1.242]) by lists.oasis-open.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80334986705 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2023 12:03:12 +0000 (UTC) Received: from host09.ws5.connectedcommunity.org (host09.ws5.connectedcommunity.org [10.110.1.97]) by lists.oasis-open.org (Postfix) with QMQP id 7260F9866EF; Wed, 8 Mar 2023 12:03:12 +0000 (UTC) Mailing-List: contact virtio-dev-help@lists.oasis-open.org; run by ezmlm List-ID: Sender: Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Received: from lists.oasis-open.org (oasis-open.org [10.110.1.242]) by lists.oasis-open.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 602B09866F2 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2023 12:03:12 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at kavi.com X-MC-Unique: 8JmefY15NZiVyczbxAd7ZA-1 X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; t=1678276989; h=in-reply-to:content-disposition:mime-version:references:message-id :subject:cc:to:from:date:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=VCO/8frcPDT9V8sQjkwGeU6d734KlF0GSCdc4hbMdZU=; b=JjPaZCRhvK0qKKpv9/jwZNTNgiX+sB9xfidB1Sm+zF/WZkL4EIe+HKyF7OUgBzpUvW ovZqmWjDbtZxSJPqLFX4J9+SuluqQ2ROY3yzZvU+Pi05A7St2c2r9AC0YKLIfSVyRCeF SlQ9c2rMZviWkCh/JRA0V+ob8OHLGZbVsNdAq/IewBosl8x38w+iirhTuKBFHDAidUGb 34avz6pLgVbJh9PGC2q1sSoyfTjK49fN5VeB6USQLd09QIW79Aay5XZwCXpszTQ/0uza VGpIGiiiaDePiSLru71NQfR3BGxHOLsQLc5VMD87n71UKdkvXjh/f8J/x4Tc2uDKR9Qr KGPg== X-Gm-Message-State: AO0yUKVmUZS9mp7jCeK4ANx3v8GQLukxjkf20WpKhFG/nCzEJMOXXGUy oO3KeV+h5WIvR3tOproFhASGEAEMwqnnbHcf6GIQbnq+9fMYGmT/MgA6Y82efWevlG4vmRYztNq hpx3zBDsbqeeJyGFmPGlBCNPvVN5M X-Received: by 2002:a17:907:c08b:b0:8ae:b083:6ceb with SMTP id st11-20020a170907c08b00b008aeb0836cebmr20617367ejc.72.1678276989089; Wed, 08 Mar 2023 04:03:09 -0800 (PST) X-Google-Smtp-Source: AK7set8ljxUf/WJQlmJ3b85B8kLsNyZIJww0dY3vLmcZR+v0YNb9scgrN1D+8fCvT57X8Wklvms3rg== X-Received: by 2002:a17:907:c08b:b0:8ae:b083:6ceb with SMTP id st11-20020a170907c08b00b008aeb0836cebmr20617332ejc.72.1678276988793; Wed, 08 Mar 2023 04:03:08 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2023 07:03:03 -0500 From: "Michael S. Tsirkin" To: Jiri Pirko Cc: Stefan Hajnoczi , virtio-comment@lists.oasis-open.org, virtio-dev@lists.oasis-open.org, jasowang@redhat.com, cohuck@redhat.com, sgarzare@redhat.com, nrupal.jani@intel.com, Piotr.Uminski@intel.com, hang.yuan@intel.com, virtio@lists.oasis-open.org, Zhu Lingshan , pasic@linux.ibm.com, Shahaf Shuler , Parav Pandit , Max Gurtovoy Message-ID: <20230308070015-mutt-send-email-mst@kernel.org> References: <910b3607a5f255134d30b3e1233e564f564eafb8.1677761896.git.mst@redhat.com> <20230302201011.GB2554028@fedora> <20230302185214-mutt-send-email-mst@kernel.org> <20230303131337.GA2866370@fedora> <20230303081515-mutt-send-email-mst@kernel.org> <20230303202314.GB2901137@fedora> MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: X-Mimecast-Spam-Score: 0 X-Mimecast-Originator: redhat.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Subject: Re: [virtio-dev] Re: [PATCH v10 03/10] admin: introduce group administration commands On Tue, Mar 07, 2023 at 12:31:51PM +0100, Jiri Pirko wrote: > Fri, Mar 03, 2023 at 09:23:14PM CET, stefanha@redhat.com wrote: > >On Fri, Mar 03, 2023 at 08:18:43AM -0500, Michael S. Tsirkin wrote: > >> On Fri, Mar 03, 2023 at 08:13:37AM -0500, Stefan Hajnoczi wrote: > >> > On Thu, Mar 02, 2023 at 06:57:24PM -0500, Michael S. Tsirkin wrote: > >> > > On Thu, Mar 02, 2023 at 03:10:11PM -0500, Stefan Hajnoczi wrote: > >> > > > On Thu, Mar 02, 2023 at 08:05:02AM -0500, Michael S. Tsirkin wrote: > >> > > > > This introduces a general structure for group administration commands, > >> > > > > used to control device groups through their owner. > >> > > > > > >> > > > > Following patches will introduce specific commands and an interface for > >> > > > > submitting these commands to the owner. > >> > > > > > >> > > > > Signed-off-by: Max Gurtovoy > >> > > > > Signed-off-by: Michael S. Tsirkin > >> > > > > --- > >> > > > > admin.tex | 108 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > >> > > > > introduction.tex | 3 ++ > >> > > > > 2 files changed, 111 insertions(+) > >> > > > > > >> > > > > diff --git a/admin.tex b/admin.tex > >> > > > > index 3dc47be..7e28b77 100644 > >> > > > > --- a/admin.tex > >> > > > > +++ b/admin.tex > >> > > > > @@ -46,4 +46,112 @@ \section{Device groups}\label{sec:Basic Facilities of a Virtio Device / Device g > >> > > > > PCI transport (see \ref{sec:Virtio Transport Options / Virtio Over PCI Bus}). > >> > > > > \end{description} > >> > > > > > >> > > > > +\subsection{Group administration commands}\label{sec:Basic Facilities of a Virtio Device / Device groups / Group administration commands} > >> > > > > > >> > > > > +The driver sends group administration commands to the owner device of > >> > > > > >> > > > I notice that the terminology is simply "the driver". "Owner driver" > >> > > > and "group member driver" might be clearer because there will be two > >> > > > (possibly different) drivers involved. > >> > > > >> > > Hmm I don't really want to repeat owner everywhere. > >> > > I will clarify that in this section simple "driver" and "device" are > >> > > owner, "member device" and "member driver" is always called explicitly. > >> > > >> > Sounds good. > >> > > >> > > > > +a group to control member devices of the group. > >> > > > > +This mechanism can > >> > > > > +be used, for example, to configure a member device before it is > >> > > > > +initialized by its driver. > >> > > > > +\footnote{The term "administration" is intended to be interpreted > >> > > > > +widely to include any kind of control. See specific commands > >> > > > > +for detail.} > >> > > > > + > >> > > > > +All the group administration commands are of the following form: > >> > > > > + > >> > > > > +\begin{lstlisting} > >> > > > > +struct virtio_admin_cmd { > >> > > > > + /* Device-readable part */ > >> > > > > + le16 opcode; > >> > > > > + /* > >> > > > > + * 1 - SR-IOV > >> > > > > + * 2 - 65535 reserved > >> > > > > + */ > >> > > > > + le16 group_type; > >> > > > > + /* unused, reserved for future extensions */ > >> > > > > + u8 reserved1[12]; > >> > > > > + le64 group_member_id; > >> > > > > + u8 command_specific_data[]; > >> > > > > + > >> > > > > + /* Device-writable part */ > >> > > > > + le16 status; > >> > > > > + le16 status_qualifier; > >> > > > > + /* unused, reserved for future extensions */ > >> > > > > + u8 reserved2[4]; > >> > > > > + u8 command_specific_result[]; > >> > > > > +}; > >> > > > > +\end{lstlisting} > >> > > > > + > >> > > > > +For all commands, \field{opcode}, \field{group_type} and if > >> > > > > +necessary \field{group_member_id} and \field{command_specific_data} are > >> > > > > +set by the driver, and the owner device sets \field{status} and if > >> > > > > +needed \field{status_qualifier} and > >> > > > > +\field{command_specific_result}. > >> > > > > + > >> > > > > +Generally, any unused device-readable fields are set to zero by the driver > >> > > > > +and ignored by the device. Any unused device-writeable fields are set to zero > >> > > > > +by the device and ignored by the driver. > >> > > > > + > >> > > > > +\field{opcode} specifies the command. The valid > >> > > > > +values for \field{opcode} can be found in the following table: > >> > > > > + > >> > > > > +\begin{tabular}{|l|l|} > >> > > > > +\hline > >> > > > > +opcode & Name & Command Description \\ > >> > > > > +\hline \hline > >> > > > > +0x0000 - 0x7FFF & - & Group administration commands \\ > >> > > > > +\hline > >> > > > > +0x8000 - 0xFFFF & - & Reserved \\ > >> > > > > +\hline > >> > > > > +\end{tabular} > >> > > > > >> > > > I thought all commands are "group administration commands" but this > >> > > > table makes it look like they are just a subset (0x0000 - 0x7FFF) of > >> > > > group administration commands, which is a paradox. > >> > > > >> > > Well the rest are reserved, maybe we will have more command types who > >> > > knows. No? > >> > > >> > I see. Does that mean the reserved commands don't need to be in the same > >> > format as struct virtio_admin_cmd? > >> > >> I am not good in predicting future ... > >> > >> > The entire section is called "Group administration commands" but I get > >> > the impression it's talking both about admin virtqueue commands in > >> > general and specifically about group administration commands. > >> > > >> > Is it possible to structure this as follows: > >> > > >> > Admin Commands > >> > ...common stuff... > >> > Group Administration Commands (0x0000-0x7fff) > >> > ...specific to group administration commands... > >> > Reserved (0x8000-0xffff) > >> > >> What if I just write it like this: > >> > >> > >> > > > > +\hline \hline > >> > > > > +0x0000 - 0x7FFF & - & commands using struct virtio_admin_cmd \\ > >> > > > > +\hline > >> > > > > +0x8000 - 0xFFFF & - & Reserved for future commands (possibly using a different structure) \\ > >> > >> > >> will this address the comment? > > > >Yes, thanks. > > What is the reason for having this table? I fail to see it. I think it's more a place-holder table in which follow-up patches add entries. I'll check and see if we can get rid of it. > > > > >Stefan > --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: virtio-dev-unsubscribe@lists.oasis-open.org For additional commands, e-mail: virtio-dev-help@lists.oasis-open.org