From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on aws-us-west-2-korg-lkml-1.web.codeaurora.org Received: from lists1p.gnu.org (lists1p.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.lore.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E5227CD5BAB for ; Sun, 24 May 2026 17:43:32 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists1p.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1wRCqh-0006nC-9g; Sun, 24 May 2026 13:42:51 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists1p.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1wRCqg-0006mw-2F for qemu-devel@nongnu.org; Sun, 24 May 2026 13:42:50 -0400 Received: from us-smtp-delivery-124.mimecast.com ([170.10.133.124]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1wRCqd-0002fB-Dw for qemu-devel@nongnu.org; Sun, 24 May 2026 13:42:49 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=redhat.com; s=mimecast20190719; t=1779644565; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=ptAnrTShNOXdvR5tu9P/yqe2dmBjUDOmBbiVfCDhRB8=; b=VXXZQ9Am04778cmY0i8jQIZ5iZcVsyBeV2D1LINz9O1pCuJVtLuFU0a/HGluD3zBg8jD/b sVxq2I83iLMeXn+8SgS8149NZcCpGYxOCyMCTQFzjGNSRB+9Xbh7E2j3cObR0Qfjea8gGV 4GQVJgDjr43W0QTxJXnEhT58y4FqWIw= Received: from mail-wr1-f72.google.com (mail-wr1-f72.google.com [209.85.221.72]) by relay.mimecast.com with ESMTP with STARTTLS (version=TLSv1.3, cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id us-mta-246-66ea_rkpPzmvGW3sjtzOIA-1; Sun, 24 May 2026 13:42:44 -0400 X-MC-Unique: 66ea_rkpPzmvGW3sjtzOIA-1 X-Mimecast-MFC-AGG-ID: 66ea_rkpPzmvGW3sjtzOIA_1779644563 Received: by mail-wr1-f72.google.com with SMTP id ffacd0b85a97d-44696b11265so10907710f8f.0 for ; Sun, 24 May 2026 10:42:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=redhat.com; s=google; t=1779644563; x=1780249363; darn=nongnu.org; h=in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition :mime-version:references:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:from:to :cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=ptAnrTShNOXdvR5tu9P/yqe2dmBjUDOmBbiVfCDhRB8=; b=X7CVgV77T723pmjMVST/28XlQTcIB/Wr8jCrwo8lIRTZF5J1ZqQMYJpalOdhRVsMIS kE5pE7+gzvFcvfS9UPs5Khx55Y+sKkuyX8+1MS45qq3TTFvdq3i1ilJ8miuMUlfrPT1r w+KnYAvqc7YxMlrnYL9uPmI9DRJvBdBZb9cpL8c+F0ns9vcNU+I+nQ3xTk2rAHRT3cfe meYaqjzhPHt5osZzaHdpygGftrDwc1PHCRJjRWEnEmXUG0Rvh7DdY2/RD3SUttwVtuLa KlMFpX0o/2Efrwd33LPMg7hdz5x6tvOdc3Apw1ijEtvO+4lPNlMvuQRc6fNDSfbpsiYP MyfA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20251104; t=1779644563; x=1780249363; h=in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition :mime-version:references:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:x-gm-gg :x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=ptAnrTShNOXdvR5tu9P/yqe2dmBjUDOmBbiVfCDhRB8=; b=C0n0UZz2iX/aDtyIUN82X2VbWQpCYsfDbrpFmuNzaix3rGC0YCS5NeLJFWMXlwKcpJ VgtF9HB1jyQhib7cYqRFRfHEPrZhPTKZv2dW5jcAyIrU0sH9UnRn66p2klzsjnktv4gj UPCOM0gTqdJrROgEHG/CSemesFbDzZCJ7Iwwv5uUFa78+FrQ+tVgimlfVdBK+pLt4kWc R8vn7xtghMKxPyZ9eY4cZHsnF1TEIfJCWxGXqcKjiWA9V8e5q1Au+OT1Frompu15ny7a FXmp72MMCNWn4nFmiI1xTWy3WnSbGZcASHzMnzitQyu2l7dXgOrVezMIQwvdTjX98ffy SPTQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YxMEW5U/eQBGrgBS59+VWRNkwjJKdJd0+7UaSQCuM+o2wNs3IzG a0R7FQtLmbwfA2Oyi5+DLL7blyFU9ptakWzEA/aYWgc0pwkw3t7gqRUve87sk4cQ7pj0Bpfax3Y aHq52dCoGFbTSvUFT5i8qe4EyLwOcbejHZC0UcclTC9U0Hl6e8tQGI5pd X-Gm-Gg: Acq92OEimdLoXjJI7k0CHTs+u6dyHwFUVrrjSYwMC3rvkZSllIVpOKgOCFICp+3YdbT wnZmBcwntD/pLrhFPVgYK5ToJH3eVA4bWJcW4KCMPlI064hr7NgkliEsW4610QkRDHtX7uWnZ5l IvvJp6XjkFPloet5U1JpKL43yI3QSNCX/NV+01hN1/q9S8woS8gj33hlRY0Vi+5ah36U2Xj+pN6 1l2lFJGgNLFWbq4M9M5E7eSvOz0Ityz1eQhbwupldrGsPqfncN2ZMM+liXGZjGjSPWErTyKz3uz rYD8jKmClgbhMYwET540u+JMg/yO33sBN1vL/5/H57Aa6CqeIFGI8ReyklDuYnZCFmLYZiVXqVU kKMluCq4JFM1Ap2i4pY+RORCJec/zkWV/irnDbBa6M2JJ4Q6tnuQmUA== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6000:4a0f:b0:45e:7997:8b7a with SMTP id ffacd0b85a97d-45eb36ab71amr18058359f8f.16.1779644562569; Sun, 24 May 2026 10:42:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a05:6000:4a0f:b0:45e:7997:8b7a with SMTP id ffacd0b85a97d-45eb36ab71amr18058325f8f.16.1779644561978; Sun, 24 May 2026 10:42:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from redhat.com (IGLD-80-230-25-45.inter.net.il. [80.230.25.45]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id ffacd0b85a97d-45eb6cce0a4sm20172410f8f.12.2026.05.24.10.42.40 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Sun, 24 May 2026 10:42:41 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 24 May 2026 13:42:39 -0400 From: "Michael S. Tsirkin" To: Alex =?iso-8859-1?Q?Benn=E9e?= Cc: qemu-devel@nongnu.org, stefanha@redhat.com Subject: Re: on ai generated and code provenance Message-ID: <20260524133734-mutt-send-email-mst@kernel.org> References: <20260524083329-mutt-send-email-mst@kernel.org> <87v7ccd9eh.fsf@draig.linaro.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <87v7ccd9eh.fsf@draig.linaro.org> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=170.10.133.124; envelope-from=mst@redhat.com; helo=us-smtp-delivery-124.mimecast.com X-Spam_score_int: -24 X-Spam_score: -2.5 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.5 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.445, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H5=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: qemu-devel@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: qemu development List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: qemu-devel-bounces+qemu-devel=archiver.kernel.org@nongnu.org Sender: qemu-devel-bounces+qemu-devel=archiver.kernel.org@nongnu.org On Sun, May 24, 2026 at 06:06:46PM +0100, Alex Bennée wrote: > "Michael S. Tsirkin" writes: > > > So, I had to reject a perfectly reasonable patch: > > https://lore.kernel.org/qemu-devel/20260320193746.242704-1-jinpu.wang@ionos.com/ > > just because of a tool used to make it. > > > > > > How contributors could comply with DCO terms (b) or (c) for the output of AI > > content generators commonly available today is unclear. The QEMU project is > > not willing or able to accept the legal risks of non-compliance. > > In the linked case the LLM is basically doing a glorified search and > replace. There seems to be no danger of accidentally regurgitating any > training data which is where the worry about inadvertent copyright > infringement comes from. > > That said in my experience generally any code that does come out from > these tools tends to match the local code style and patterns pretty > well. Making the code original, too. > As a general purpose boilerplate generator they are probably > better than a lot of people at this point. > > There has been some case law now that says LLM output could be > un-copyrightable depending on how involved the user was in the iteration > of the code. I suspect there is still more to come. Waiting for courts to settle anything means waiting years, while the industry has mostly moved on. > > > > > > But, since this was written, Red Hat's Richard Fontana and Chris Wright > > published this piece: > > https://www.redhat.com/en/blog/ai-assisted-development-and-open-source-navigating-legal-issues > > > > > > Saying, in particular " > > We understand this concern, but the DCO has never > > been interpreted to require that every line of a contribution must be > > the personal creative expression of the contributor or another human > > developer. > > " > > > > I propose adopting linux's rules instead: > > https://docs.kernel.org/process/coding-assistants.html > > > > which boils down to attribution. > > attribution and *ownership*. I think the key point of the policy is to > make the actual engineer signing the DCO the responsible one for > generating, testing and validating the code. It is strongly trying to > suggest that vibe-coded slop isn't wanted. > > I still have concerns about the quality of the code and the > "understanding" these models have. They can generate very convincing > rationales for their decisions but they also are prone to being > over-verbose and over-complicating the solutions. They have a tendency > to chase down rabbit holes in the code and get lost while making wilder > and more invasive changes to try and get things working. That's up to maintainers though. > That said for personal scripts or random experiments the ability to > quickly get to a PoC is pretty great. Patch above is beyond that. > I think there is also scope for using LLMs for things that aren't > directly writing code: > > - code review > - investigation > - generating test cases > - polishing documentation > > and I wonder if we should spend some more time investigating the > performance and pitfalls of LLMs before we open the flood gates to the > code. Who would do the investigating? > -- > Alex Bennée > Virtualisation Tech Lead @ Linaro