[parisc-linux] Puffin sells out!

[parisc-linux] Puffin sells out!

[John David Anglin]

Reported in the Wall Street Journal Dec. 14, 1999, see
<http://www.linuxcare.com/company/press/1999/12-14-99_puffin.epl>.  It was
stated that the Puffin Group, a small group of Linux buffs who have been
helping Hewlett-Packard Co., is being purchased by Linuxcare Inc.  Alex
Devries and Christopher Beard will become directors within Linuxcare's
Professional Services Business Unit.

Is this the end?

Dave
-- 
J. David Anglin                                  dave.anglin@nrc.ca
National Research Council of Canada              (613) 990-0752 (FAX: 952-6605)

Re: [parisc-linux] Puffin sells out!

[Alan Cox]

> Reported in the Wall Street Journal Dec. 14, 1999, see
> <http://www.linuxcare.com/company/press/1999/12-14-99_puffin.epl>.  It was
> stated that the Puffin Group, a small group of Linux buffs who have been
> helping Hewlett-Packard Co., is being purchased by Linuxcare Inc.  Alex
> Devries and Christopher Beard will become directors within Linuxcare's
> Professional Services Business Unit.
> 
> Is this the end?

That depends what the Puffingroup and HP folks want to do with the port. If
its carrying on as an open public port and HP are willing to open all 
their document access and like to other folks I dont see a problem. If they
work tightly with LC/Puffingroup and trumpet them as their HP Linux porting
heroes then yes its going to be hard for anyone else to justify working for
them.

I doubt HP are dumb somehow. We'll see. Even if HP and LC do most of the
running in their own private little world it doesnt change things like merging
with the main kernel tree and working with folks to sort out interfaces and 
the like.

Alan

Re: [parisc-linux] Puffin sells out!

[Eric Molitor]

On Wed, 15 Dec 1999, Alan Cox wrote:

> > Reported in the Wall Street Journal Dec. 14, 1999, see
> > <http://www.linuxcare.com/company/press/1999/12-14-99_puffin.epl>.  It was
> > stated that the Puffin Group, a small group of Linux buffs who have been
> > helping Hewlett-Packard Co., is being purchased by Linuxcare Inc.  Alex
> > Devries and Christopher Beard will become directors within Linuxcare's
> > Professional Services Business Unit.
> > 
> > Is this the end?
> 
> That depends what the Puffingroup and HP folks want to do with the port. If
> its carrying on as an open public port and HP are willing to open all 
> their document access and like to other folks I dont see a problem. If they
> work tightly with LC/Puffingroup and trumpet them as their HP Linux porting
> heroes then yes its going to be hard for anyone else to justify working for
> them.
> 
> I doubt HP are dumb somehow. We'll see. Even if HP and LC do most of the
> running in their own private little world it doesnt change things like merging
> with the main kernel tree and working with folks to sort out interfaces and 
> the like.
> 
> Alan

Re: [parisc-linux] Puffin sells out!

[Alex deVries]

John David Anglin wrote:
> Is this the end?

Oh, get real.

The Puffin Group will continue to do PA-RISC Linux, but now we'll be
able to put more resources behind it than we've been able to in the
past. It will remain an open source project and will operate as it has. 
The relationship with HP has only been strengthened.

You really should talk to us before coming to such sombre conclusions.

- Alex

-- 
Alex deVries
Vice President of Engineering
The Puffin Group

Re: [parisc-linux] HP releasing docs...

[Alex deVries]

Alan Cox wrote:
> If
> its carrying on as an open public port and HP are willing to open all
> their document access and like to other folks I dont see a problem. 

Having HP opening up documents is probably more difficult than most of
you realize, and in the same way that other hardware vendors can't
release documents on portions of hardware for fear of releasing
competitive information, HP is limited as well.  Expecting HP to open up
*all* documentation is unrealistic.

Also, releasing the documentation isn't just pressing the magic button
labelled "Release Publicly" in red.  The docs have to be found,
screened, edited, reformatted etc. 

Ideally, though, developers will have access to all the hardware they're
porting to. 

What's second best is to be able to do development of certain portions
under NDA.  This can be used when the docs for the hardware *can't* be
released, or when they're not ready to be released.  Advanced viewing
helps out a lot.

The Puffin Group's set up to do this, although we haven't generated any
useable code in this situation yet.  Signing such NDAs has helped us
with quite a few other ways though, in terms of planning.  The open
source linker would never have happened, for instance.

NDA's aren't quite the evil they're made out to be, having them has
really given us a better insight into how to do parisc-linux.

- Alex
-- 
Alex deVries
Vice President of Engineering
The Puffin Group

Re: [parisc-linux] HP releasing docs...

[Alan Cox]

> Also, releasing the documentation isn't just pressing the magic button
> labelled "Release Publicly" in red.  The docs have to be found,
> screened, edited, reformatted etc. 

I know that.

> Ideally, though, developers will have access to all the hardware they're
> porting to. 

Irrespective of who they work for ?

> What's second best is to be able to do development of certain portions
> under NDA.  This can be used when the docs for the hardware *can't* be
> released, or when they're not ready to be released.  Advanced viewing
> helps out a lot.

Yeah

Re: [parisc-linux] Puffin sells out!

[John David Anglin]

> John David Anglin wrote:
> > Is this the end?
> 
> Oh, get real.

It was a question not a conclusion.  I was very surprised to learn about
the sale of the Puffin Group in the paper.  The sale clearly had the
potential to change the dynamics of the PA-RISC port.

As you are aware, the linux market is "red-hot" and investors are plowing
mega-bucks into linux companies.  For example, Linuxcare recieved $32.5
million (U.S.) in funding from Dell, Sun, Motorola and Oracle.  HP wasn't
on the list.

It is certain that the investors pouring money into linux companies are
going to demand a return on their investment.  There will be strong pressure
within these companies to control and close the development of linux.
Standards committees will be formed and this will be a further method by
which participating companies will enhance their position in the market place.

If you look at the board of Linicare, you will see that it is made up
mainly of business people, not linux hackers.  How the linux market will
evolve is hard to say but the current consolidation suggests that venture
capitalists are attempting to gain control of large segment of it.

> The Puffin Group will continue to do PA-RISC Linux, but now we'll be
> able to put more resources behind it than we've been able to in the
> past. It will remain an open source project and will operate as it has. 
> The relationship with HP has only been strengthened.

That's very good news.

-- 
J. David Anglin                                  dave.anglin@nrc.ca
National Research Council of Canada              (613) 990-0752 (FAX: 952-6605)

Re: [parisc-linux] Puffin sells out!

[Jack Perdue]

At 09:53 PM 12/14/99 -0500, some Puffin wrote:

[doomsday scenario snipped]

>> Is this the end?
>
>For parisc-linux, yes.  [snip]

>While employees are not forbidden from continuing to work on the port,
>they are actively encouraged to work on proprietary puffin products in
>their spare time which we shall be making a press release about shortly.

    OTTOWA, Canada (AP) - In a surprise strategy, The Puffin Group
    announced in the wake of their takeover today by Linuxcare, Inc.
    a new policy "encouraging" their workers to work for free, reminiscent
    of the downsizing trend of the 1980s.  Business analysts are confused 
    as to the profitability and viability of such policy.  "Asking your
    employees to give up their spare time to put dollars in the pockets
    of the shareholders seems to be a stretch", said Silicon Valley
    analyst...[etc.]

>The mailing list will be deactivated shortly.  We thank you for your
>participation.

LOL!

>This email may contain confidential and privileged material for the sole
>use of the intended recipient. Any review or distribution by others is
>strictly prohibited.  If you are not the intended recipient please contact
>the sender and delete all copies.

Oops.

>To unsubscribe: send e-mail to parisc-linux-request@thepuffingroup.com with
>`unsubscribe' as the subject.

Should we do this now or just wait for its deactivation. :)

jack
j-perdue@tamu.edu

Re: [parisc-linux] Puffin sells out!

[Tomasz Korycki]

        This is what Matthew wrote:

>> Is this the end?
>
>For parisc-linux, yes.  We will be supporting the aforementioned
>database products on HPUX and Solaris.  We're looking to bring in some
>IRIX expertise soon and possibly add Oracle and MS-SQL support too.
>While employees are not forbidden from continuing to work on the port,
>they are actively encouraged to work on proprietary puffin products in
>their spare time which we shall be making a press release about shortly.
>
>The mailing list will be deactivated shortly.  We thank you for your
>participation.
>

        And this is Alex's take:

>John David Anglin wrote:
>> Is this the end?
>
>Oh, get real.
>
>The Puffin Group will continue to do PA-RISC Linux, but now we'll be
>able to put more resources behind it than we've been able to in the
>past. It will remain an open source project and will operate as it has. 
>The relationship with HP has only been strengthened.
>
>You really should talk to us before coming to such sombre conclusions.
>
>- Alex
>

      Am I humour-impaired, or do I sense something smelly here? And if the
former, could we have a clarification? OR, at least, could I? Please?!

Re: [parisc-linux] Puffin sells out!

[Tomasz Korycki]

>I've been asked to tag this sort of message with explicit sarcasm tags in
>the future.  I need to remember the difference between humor and humour.
>

OK. Uffff.... I guess I really should not underestimate the importance of
sleep. Even with SP2 in fron of me... Yeah, it will wait. Go for the sack
now. NOW!
. . . . . 

Re: [parisc-linux] Puffin sells out!

[Matthew Wilcox]

On Tue, Dec 14, 1999 at 09:53:58PM -0500, Matthew Wilcox wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 14, 1999 at 08:22:19PM -0500, John David Anglin wrote:
> > Reported in the Wall Street Journal Dec. 14, 1999, see
> > <http://www.linuxcare.com/company/press/1999/12-14-99_puffin.epl>.  It was
> > stated that the Puffin Group, a small group of Linux buffs who have been
> > helping Hewlett-Packard Co., is being purchased by Linuxcare Inc.  Alex
> > Devries and Christopher Beard will become directors within Linuxcare's
> > Professional Services Business Unit.
> 
> That's correct.  The Puffin Group will now be manning the phone lines

[...]

> The mailing list will be deactivated shortly.  We thank you for your
> participation.

I've been asked to tag this sort of message with explicit sarcasm tags in
the future.  I need to remember the difference between humor and humour.

P.S.  Jack, that sounds like an innovative business model, i'm sure your
IPO will set new records :-)

Re: [parisc-linux] Puffin sells out!

[John David Anglin]

> On Tue, Dec 14, 1999 at 09:53:58PM -0500, Matthew Wilcox wrote:
> > On Tue, Dec 14, 1999 at 08:22:19PM -0500, John David Anglin wrote:
> > > Reported in the Wall Street Journal Dec. 14, 1999, see
> > > <http://www.linuxcare.com/company/press/1999/12-14-99_puffin.epl>.  It was
> > > stated that the Puffin Group, a small group of Linux buffs who have been
> > > helping Hewlett-Packard Co., is being purchased by Linuxcare Inc.  Alex
> > > Devries and Christopher Beard will become directors within Linuxcare's
> > > Professional Services Business Unit.
> > 
> > That's correct.  The Puffin Group will now be manning the phone lines

Oh, I thought they were going to sell systems to the medical profession.

-- 
J. David Anglin                                  dave.anglin@nrc.ca
National Research Council of Canada              (613) 990-0752 (FAX: 952-6605)

RE: [parisc-linux] Puffin sells out!

[FINK,MARTIN (HP-FtCollins,ex1)]

Ok - an HP manager takes the stand - listen up!

This will attempt to talk to all of the comments posted so far....

1.  HP is currently actively funding the effort to port Linux to PA.
    Since I'm the guy who's actually signing the invoices, paychecks
    and the bills, I think I should know.  So, if anyone doubts that
    this is happening, let me know - if you need to see a warm body
    actually checking in code, we'll arrange for that.

2.  HP is trying really hard to balance active involvement with doing
    too much.  This is an Open Source project.  HP's role is to help
    by providing docs, equipment, and resources to the community to do
    the development.  If you don't have what you need, tell me the
    specific details of what you're missing and why you need it.  I'll
    do what I can to get it to you.  If HP tries to do too much, then
    we'll be perceived as taking over the port.  If you think we have
    the wrong balance, speak up, give details and tell us what you
    think we should be doing.

3.  We are actively working on cleaning up docs (ie removing people's
    names, part numbers, product code names and proprietary data).
    It's a complex and involved process that engineers do (in most
    cases) at home, in their spare time.  Again, if there's a specific
    piece of data you need, post a note, we'll get you what you need.

4.  The relationship between HP and The Puffins (LinuxCare) is just
    fine.  We continue to work closely together, and we all feel very
    positive about the Puffin/LinuxCare linkup.  As Alex mentioned,
    because of the linkup, more and better is now possible.

Any questions?  I'll be listening until Friday 5PM MST, then I'll be
on vacation (in my home town of Ottawa of all places) until Jan 4th, 
2000.

Martin

+=====================================================================+
| Martin Fink                 | E-mail: mailto:martin_fink@hp.com     |
| UNIX Development Lab        | Phone:  970-898-7076                  |
| Hewlett-Packard Co.         | FAX:    970-898-2838                  |
| 3404 East Harmony Road      | ===================================== |
| Ft. Collins, CO, USA, 80528 | Web:    http://www.hp.com/            |
+=====================================================================+    

Re: [parisc-linux] Puffin sells out!

[Alex deVries]

Eric Molitor wrote:
> >From all appearences HP has a strong interest in porting Linux to the
> PA-Risc architecture (at least the 2.0 arch.). If I recall correctly
> aren't there some HP employees whom get paid to work on the port (at least
> for 2.0). 

There are, yes.  Take a bow, Grant Grundler and Paul Bame.

> Regardless I've allready heard rumors that the port is dead from
> several people whom are quite distanced from the actual port.

Anyone who thinks this port is dead clearly hasn't been reading the CVS
mailing list or reading the weekly summary of changes.

- Alex

-- 
Alex deVries
Vice President of Engineering
The Puffin Group

RE: [parisc-linux] Puffin sells out!

[FINK,MARTIN (HP-FtCollins,ex1)]

Some good questions here.  Let's see if I can address some of this....

> Regarding checking in code, that is a good idea.  Jeff Law at Cygnus
> controls the gcc development with an iron hand, trying to 
> ensure that each
> modification is justified and the side effects are understood.  Quite
> a few patches and small fixes haven't made it into the linux 
> CVS because
> no one has this responsibility.  Somebody needs to be in 
> charge.  Cygnus
> uses separate lists for bug discussion, patches, etc.  Paul Bame has
> helped getting some of my stuff in.
> 

I expect that Alex and the Puffin Group to do the source management
and make sure the submissions are sane.  As part of HP's contribution
to the effort, we supply systems and provide administrative assistance 
for the systems used for source management.  At one point, there will be
a merge back to the main kernel tree.  I'm not sure how the "arch"
PA specific stuff will be maintain after that.  Paul works for one
of my managers.

> The community understands that HP has been funding and supporting the
> port.  The big question is the level of support enough?  How important
> is linux to HP's future?  At least two years ago, SGI decided IRIX was
> dying and agressively started to support linux development for their
> machines.  Red Hat currently has a market capitalization on the order
> of $16 billion.  Linuxcare just had a major capital infusion 
> from Dell,
> Sun, Motorola and Oracle.  I can't predict the future but it 
> sure looks
> like the landscape is changing fast.  You know what HP is spending, so
> how does it compare?  Is it enough to ensure that HP remains a player?

I think we have to be careful here, because there are some key 
differences.  There is no question in my mind that Linux is very
important to HP.  However, where SGI made the decision to eventually
replace IRIX with Linux, HP still has full intent to aggressively
support, enhance, and continue development of HP-UX.  HP-UX is still
the #1 UNIX out there and HP is very committed to that customer base.
However, we have customers and potential customers that would like
to see support of Linux from HP.  To that end, HP is investing in
a large number of areas.  That includes Linux on PA, Linux on IA-32,
Linux on IA-64, etc. etc.  Also, don't forget that we have printers
and networking devices and other businesses also investing in Linux.
HP made some very substantial contributions to the Linux/IA-64 port
to get it where it is today.  So, will HP be a major Linux player? -
Absolutely!  If you have any doubt that HP can flex its $42Billion
muscle against Sun, IBM and DELL - just watch!

> 
> Alan Cox correctly stated the concerns of the external community.
> How it is managed is very important.  If the community feels Linuxcare
> is using the community to further its own ends, they won't be 
> happy about
> contributing.  This is what I trying to convey when I originally wrote
> "Puffin sells out!".  The balance with HP isn't particular 
> important as
> long as the external community can contribute as peers.  My 
> sense is the
> external community loves challenge and will endeavour to find the best
> solution possible.  On the otherhand, it is not well 
> organized and there
> are all levels of expertise.
> 
> I like contributing because it is fun and challenging.

All I can say at this point is that, that's what we're trying
to do.  If I took over 90% of the Linux/PA development, it would
be tough for the community to be contributing as peers.  So,
when someone thinks there's a problem - speak up - I am
listening.

> 
> The spare time comment concerns me and again reflects on HP's 
> commitment.
> On the otherhand, the pace of providing documentation probably hasn't
> significantly impacted the pace of code development.  I would guess
> that documentation on graphics adapters will be needed in the 
> near future.
> None of this seems to be available.

Let me clarify.  The real job of the hardware engineers who own most 
of the docs is to do more hardware.  The docs they write are normally
done for internal use and internal partners.  They may reference
information that is proprietary, trade secret, or licensed from other
companies we have as partners.  Their job is not to do Linux, or 
HP-UX, or NT, or any other OS.  But, most of them are really excited
about the work we're doing and giving time from their day and night
jobs to make sure we're successful.  So, not only do you have an HP
commitment with hard dollars behind it, you have the emotional
commitment of engineers at HP (which may in fact be more valuable :)).
The graphics side is also something we're managing and pulling docs
for.  Most of the requests we've received are for our very old
workstations and we have to go and dig-out the docs and find someone
who still remembers the stuff :).  We'll probably be careful with
the brand new stuff.  HP has leadership graphics that no one else
can touch right now.  How we do that is still covered by patent,
copyright and trade secret.  We are working on a number of 
different alternatives to get the community what they need without
giving away the goose.  Again, if you have a specific need, speak
up - we'll get you what we can.

> 
> If you have time while you're in town, give me a call.  Maybe we can
> go for a beer or such.  Possibly, some of the Linuxcare 
> Puffins would like
> to go as well.
> 

Probably not this go-around.  When I'm in town meeting with Alex on
official business, we can probably arrange that.

> Dave
> -- 
> J. David Anglin                                  dave.anglin@nrc.ca
> National Research Council of Canada              (613) 
> 990-0752 (FAX: 952-6605)
> 

+=====================================================================+
| Martin Fink                 | E-mail: mailto:martin_fink@hp.com     |
| UNIX Development Lab        | Phone:  970-898-7076                  |
| Hewlett-Packard Co.         | FAX:    970-898-2838                  |
| 3404 East Harmony Road      | ===================================== |
| Ft. Collins, CO, USA, 80528 | Web:    http://www.hp.com/            |
+=====================================================================+    

RE: [parisc-linux] Puffin sells out!

[Tomasz Korycki]

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> snip! <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

>> The community understands that HP has been funding and supporting the
>> port.  The big question is the level of support enough?  How important
>> is linux to HP's future?  At least two years ago, SGI decided IRIX was
>> dying and agressively started to support linux development for their
>> machines. 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> snip! <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

>I think we have to be careful here, because there are some key 
>differences.  There is no question in my mind that Linux is very
>important to HP.  However, where SGI made the decision to eventually
>replace IRIX with Linux, HP still has full intent to aggressively
>support, enhance, and continue development of HP-UX.  HP-UX is still
>the #1 UNIX out there and HP is very committed to that customer base.

  OK, the voice from the IRIX-world: Yes, SGI does pretty much the same
thing as HP does. There's full-speed-ahead on the port, but using mostly
spare time, good will and outside community. Documentation has to go through
the same process. It all takes tiiiiiiime.... Anyway, from what I gather,
IRIX is also developing nicely. Essentially, SGI is betting on Linux for
workstations and IRIX for bigger boxes (the criteria: if You need a friend
to lift it, You need IRIX; if You can do it Yourself, Linux will be fine; if
You need a step-ladder to get into it - well, get UnicOS). Mind You, some of
the key IRIX ppl just left, but it may be of no relevance. So, SGI's idea
seems to be: get the low-end with Linux, the middle-ground with IRIX and the
high-end with UNICOS. Makes sense to me. Also, they essentially abandoned
older arch (R3k), which makes things a lot simpler (for porting and,
especially, docs).

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> snip! <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
>> Dave
>> -- 
>> J. David Anglin                                  dave.anglin@nrc.ca
>> National Research Council of Canada              (613) 
>> 990-0752 (FAX: 952-6605)
>> 
>
>+=====================================================================+
>| Martin Fink                 | E-mail: mailto:martin_fink@hp.com     |
>| UNIX Development Lab        | Phone:  970-898-7076                  |
>| Hewlett-Packard Co.         | FAX:    970-898-2838                  |
>| 3404 East Harmony Road      | ===================================== |
>| Ft. Collins, CO, USA, 80528 | Web:    http://www.hp.com/            |
>+=====================================================================+    
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>To unsubscribe: send e-mail to parisc-linux-request@thepuffingroup.com with
>`unsubscribe' as the subject.
>
>

Re: [parisc-linux] HP releasing docs...

[Alex deVries]

Alan Cox wrote:
> > Ideally, though, developers will have access to all the hardware they're
> > porting to.
> Irrespective of who they work for ?

I actually meant that they'd have docs for the hardware they're porting
too, but this is true too.

I think we've been pretty blind in giving hardware out at the start, and
I don't see this changing.

However, what doesn't make sense is to ship people hardware that contain
critical components that either a) don't yet have drivers written or b)
we can't send docs on.

- Alex

-- 
Alex deVries
Vice President of Engineering
The Puffin Group

Re: [parisc-linux] Puffin sells out!

[Philipp Rumpf]

> > Regardless I've allready heard rumors that the port is dead from
> > several people whom are quite distanced from the actual port.
> Anyone who thinks this port is dead clearly hasn't been reading the CVS
> mailing list or reading the weekly summary of changes.

Just for anyone who wants to be told this by one more person:

I don't believe the port will be negatively influenced by LC buying TPG.
In fact, I agree with Alex that the most likely result is positive.

There is the remote possibility that LC starts behaving stupid, but I
don't think it's worth it to think about that before it actually happened.

	Philipp Rumpf

Re: [parisc-linux] HP releasing docs...

[Alan Cox]

> Oddly enough what about those of us out there with copies of old HP/UX?
> Having only an old copy of HP/UX there is no way that I can compile a

HP released the SOM linker source so hopefully that will get solved and 
allow cross compiles eventually.

Re: [parisc-linux] HP releasing docs...

[Eric Molitor]

On Thu, 16 Dec 1999, Alex deVries wrote:

> Alan Cox wrote:
> > > Ideally, though, developers will have access to all the hardware they're
> > > porting to.
> > Irrespective of who they work for ?
> 
> I actually meant that they'd have docs for the hardware they're porting
> too, but this is true too.
> 
> I think we've been pretty blind in giving hardware out at the start, and
> I don't see this changing.
> 
> However, what doesn't make sense is to ship people hardware that contain
> critical components that either a) don't yet have drivers written or b)
> we can't send docs on.

Oddly enough what about those of us out there with copies of old HP/UX?
Having only an old copy of HP/UX there is no way that I can compile a
kernel. Is there anyway a machine can be put online for uses such as this?
(Similar to what debian is doing with the Rebel Computing ne Corel
Netwinder?) I've got a machine and a DS3 at work which can be utilized for
such a purpose. (Via our client Novare we allready host the Debian master
server. [master.debian.org]) I just dont have an OS...

Is there any interest in this?

- Eric Molitor

Re: [parisc-linux] HP releasing docs...

[John David Anglin]

> Oddly enough what about those of us out there with copies of old HP/UX?
> Having only an old copy of HP/UX there is no way that I can compile a
> kernel. Is there anyway a machine can be put online for uses such as this?

How old is your HP-UX?  I was able to build with 9.01.  If you let me
know what the problem is, there may a solution to resolve the problems
that you are having.

Dave
-- 
J. David Anglin                                  dave.anglin@nrc.ca
National Research Council of Canada              (613) 990-0752 (FAX: 952-6605)