[parisc-linux] Value of an old K-class server?

[parisc-linux] Value of an old K-class server?

[Andrew Shugg]

Greetings noble list dwellers,

I have emerged from my long lurk to ask for some help on a vaguely related
issue.  I have my eye on a K200 which has been decommissioned, but the
company won't let go of it until someone ("official") can tell them what
it's worth.  I've been waiting for them to just give up and sell it to me
very cheaply, but I don't want to miss my chance.

The lowest-numbered K class machine I can find on HP's website is a K220.
I'm fairly sure the machine I've looked at is a K200, but if this model
never existed then it's probably a 220.  =)

My understanding is that it has a single CPU, either 128 or 256MB of RAM,
and around 16GB of disk.  It also has in it some kind of cradle or something
for putting more memory into it - something that is (apparently) not usually
included with such a beast.

This is in Australia, but if anyone can name a figure in their local currency
I'll work it out.

When or if I get it, it will be joining my HP 375/125 in helping with testing
for the parisc-linux project, hence the vague relation to this list.  =)

Thanks in advance,

Andrew.

P.S.  A quick attempt with HP's on-line calculator says that a new base-line
      K-class (K360, 1 CPU, 1GB RAM, 9GB disk) would cost AUS$85,000.  Eek.

--
Andrew Shugg <andrew@neep.com.au>                http://www.neep.com.au/

  "Just remember Basil, there's always someone worse off than yourself."
  "Oh, really?  I'd like to meet him ... I could do with a good laugh."
                 [ Sybil and Basil Fawlty, "Fawlty Towers" ]

RE: [parisc-linux] Value of an old K-class server?

[Robert Womack]

Andrew,

  I too am a lurker in the shadows, but thanks for asking a question for
which I may have part of an answer.  I help HP UNIX salespeople and so have
some resources.

  Value, of course, is what one will pay for something.  In the case of a
K200, the answer is, "Not much."  You may be able to find a broker on the
web who will give you an offer and the offer will be slight.

  If you were purchasing a new HP machine [in the US, naturally], say a
D-Class or cheap L-Class HP would write you a check for $US 1,800 (about
AUS$ 2,900); if you were buying a top K-Class or N-Class, HP would give you
$US 6,000 (about AUS$ 9,250).  In my experience, this is generally no better
than you could get from a broker.

Regards,
              Rob Womack

-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Shugg [mailto:andrew@neep.com.au]
Sent: Tuesday, February 29, 2000 12:07 PM
To: parisc-linux@thepuffingroup.com
Subject: [parisc-linux] Value of an old K-class server?


Greetings noble list dwellers,

I have emerged from my long lurk to ask for some help on a vaguely related
issue.  I have my eye on a K200 which has been decommissioned, but the
company won't let go of it until someone ("official") can tell them what
it's worth.  I've been waiting for them to just give up and sell it to me
very cheaply, but I don't want to miss my chance.

The lowest-numbered K class machine I can find on HP's website is a K220.
I'm fairly sure the machine I've looked at is a K200, but if this model
never existed then it's probably a 220.  =)

My understanding is that it has a single CPU, either 128 or 256MB of RAM,
and around 16GB of disk.  It also has in it some kind of cradle or something
for putting more memory into it - something that is (apparently) not usually
included with such a beast.

This is in Australia, but if anyone can name a figure in their local
currency
I'll work it out.

When or if I get it, it will be joining my HP 375/125 in helping with
testing
for the parisc-linux project, hence the vague relation to this list.  =)

Thanks in advance,

Andrew.

P.S.  A quick attempt with HP's on-line calculator says that a new base-line
      K-class (K360, 1 CPU, 1GB RAM, 9GB disk) would cost AUS$85,000.  Eek.

--
Andrew Shugg <andrew@neep.com.au>                http://www.neep.com.au/

  "Just remember Basil, there's always someone worse off than yourself."
  "Oh, really?  I'd like to meet him ... I could do with a good laugh."
                 [ Sybil and Basil Fawlty, "Fawlty Towers" ]

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To unsubscribe: send e-mail to parisc-linux-request@thepuffingroup.com with
`unsubscribe' as the subject.

Re: [parisc-linux] Value of an old K-class server?

[willy]

On Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 01:06:47AM +0800, Andrew Shugg wrote:
> The lowest-numbered K class machine I can find on HP's website is a K220.
> I'm fairly sure the machine I've looked at is a K200, but if this model
> never existed then it's probably a 220.  =)

I've just been going through The List of hardware, bashing the hw database
into something more sane.  The K200 did exist, codenamed `Kittyhawk' with
a 100MHz PA7200 CPU in it.  It has an NIO bus in it which is something
we don't have documentation on yet (also known as HP-PB, I think).
The K-class machines probably wont work very soon, but I suspect someone
will eventually get them working.  Mention the cost of getting a support
contract on it if you need to scare management into dropping the price :-)

> When or if I get it, it will be joining my HP 375/125 in helping with testing
> for the parisc-linux project, hence the vague relation to this list.  =)

300 series... aarrrgghh :-)  300/400 series machines are m68k based.
We are sharing their HIL keyboard driver (share in the sense of `copied
and made changes but will merge back later' sense), and Steve Shack
mentioned something about the 300-series STI interface recently.

Re: [parisc-linux] Value of an old K-class server?

[Grant Grundler]

willy@thepuffingroup.com wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 01:06:47AM +0800, Andrew Shugg wrote:
> > The lowest-numbered K class machine I can find on HP's website is a K220.
> > I'm fairly sure the machine I've looked at is a K200, but if this model
> > never existed then it's probably a 220.  =)
> 
> I've just been going through The List of hardware, bashing the hw database
> into something more sane.  The K200 did exist, codenamed `Kittyhawk' with
> a 100MHz PA7200 CPU in it.  It has an NIO bus in it which is something
> we don't have documentation on yet (also known as HP-PB, I think).
> The K-class machines probably wont work very soon, but I suspect someone
> will eventually get them working.

Think of the K-class as a C-class (eg. C100) with HP-PB instead of EISA.
But forget the HP-PB.  Very few cards are made for it and most are HP
proprietary.  At least all the HP-PB SCSI boards are. The problem is not
getting the cards - getting a device driver will be difficult unless
someone in HP is a masochist and wants to write one. Not me.

Kittyhawks also have GSC "slots". The core I/O board has one "slot" and
the Harrier board has room for 4 more GSC cards.  IIRC, TPG has a dozen
or so gigabit ethernet cards which would fit nicely on a harrier.  I suspect
Andrew was refering to a Harrier board.

I have no clue what the actual value of a K200 is. One should be able to
upgrade the system to something faster than 100Mhz and add CPU's. I'm
just not sure it's worth it. Compare to a C3000 or B1000 before going
that route.

grant

Grant Grundler
Unix Development Lab
+1.408.447.7253

Re: [parisc-linux] Value of an old K-class server?

[Andrew Shugg]

First of all, thanks to two Robs (Womack and Hoppe), Willy and Grant for
their feedback.  With any luck I'll be able to talk 'em into a cheap deal -
especially seeing as it's costing them a fair whack per month for floor space
rental in a data centre, even though it's switched off ...

Willy also said:

> 300 series... aarrrgghh :-)  300/400 series machines are m68k based.
> We are sharing their HIL keyboard driver (share in the sense of `copied
> and made changes but will merge back later' sense), and Steve Shack
> mentioned something about the 300-series STI interface recently.

I'm a bit confused by this.  I thought the HP 375 was a PA-RISC thingy.
Certainly there have been numerous people on this list talking about getting
their 315's or whatever to boot the parisc-linux kernel.

Had me a look at the HW database, and it says the 375 carries a 'PA7000'
processor.  (As a side note, the link for this in the database,
"http://216.208.98.4/view.php3?type=cpu&name=PA7000 (PCX-S)", made my proxy
server unhappy.  Dropping the " (PCX-S)" off the end of it helped.)

Is a PA7000 not a PA-RISC chip?

Showing my ignorance,

Andrew.

--
Andrew Shugg <andrew@neep.com.au>                http://www.neep.com.au/

  "Just remember Basil, there's always someone worse off than yourself."
  "Oh, really?  I'd like to meet him ... I could do with a good laugh."
                 [ Sybil and Basil Fawlty, "Fawlty Towers" ]

RE: [parisc-linux] Value of an old K-class server?

[Robert Womack]

Andrew,

   The PA7000 is indeed a PA-RISC microprocessor, a 32biter.  The series
that begin with 8 (PA8n00) are the 64bit types.

Regards,
            rob womack

-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Shugg [mailto:andrew@neep.com.au]
Sent: Tuesday, February 29, 2000 6:49 PM
To: parisc-linux@thepuffingroup.com
Subject: Re: [parisc-linux] Value of an old K-class server?


First of all, thanks to two Robs (Womack and Hoppe), Willy and Grant for
their feedback.  With any luck I'll be able to talk 'em into a cheap deal -
especially seeing as it's costing them a fair whack per month for floor
space
rental in a data centre, even though it's switched off ...

Willy also said:

> 300 series... aarrrgghh :-)  300/400 series machines are m68k based.
> We are sharing their HIL keyboard driver (share in the sense of `copied
> and made changes but will merge back later' sense), and Steve Shack
> mentioned something about the 300-series STI interface recently.

I'm a bit confused by this.  I thought the HP 375 was a PA-RISC thingy.
Certainly there have been numerous people on this list talking about getting
their 315's or whatever to boot the parisc-linux kernel.

Had me a look at the HW database, and it says the 375 carries a 'PA7000'
processor.  (As a side note, the link for this in the database,
"http://216.208.98.4/view.php3?type=cpu&name=PA7000 (PCX-S)", made my proxy
server unhappy.  Dropping the " (PCX-S)" off the end of it helped.)

Is a PA7000 not a PA-RISC chip?

Showing my ignorance,

Andrew.

--
Andrew Shugg <andrew@neep.com.au>                http://www.neep.com.au/

  "Just remember Basil, there's always someone worse off than yourself."
  "Oh, really?  I'd like to meet him ... I could do with a good laugh."
                 [ Sybil and Basil Fawlty, "Fawlty Towers" ]

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To unsubscribe: send e-mail to parisc-linux-request@thepuffingroup.com with
`unsubscribe' as the subject.

Re: [parisc-linux] Value of an old K-class server?

[willy]

On Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 07:48:49AM +0800, Andrew Shugg wrote:
> I'm a bit confused by this.  I thought the HP 375 was a PA-RISC thingy.
> Certainly there have been numerous people on this list talking about getting
> their 315's or whatever to boot the parisc-linux kernel.

Do you perhaps mean the 735 and 715?

> Had me a look at the HW database, and it says the 375 carries a 'PA7000'
> processor.  (As a side note, the link for this in the database,
> "http://216.208.98.4/view.php3?type=cpu&name=PA7000 (PCX-S)", made my proxy
> server unhappy.  Dropping the " (PCX-S)" off the end of it helped.)

This is a bug which we fixed earlier this afternoon (that should have
been `%20' instead of the space character).  There are still pending
changes to the hw database that will make it closer to being correct.
At least the PA8000/8200/8500 chips should be correct (there may be
omissions, but there should not be incorrect chips in those categories).

> Is a PA7000 not a PA-RISC chip?

Yes, it is.  To complicate matters, there are PA7000 CPUs which implement
the PA1.0 architecture (PCX) and PA7000 CPUs which implement the PA1.1
architecture (PCX-S).  The intention is to support the latter and not
the former.

> Showing my ignorance,

Less than a year ago, I didn't know the difference between a PA1.0 and
PA1.1 machine :-)

Re: [parisc-linux] Value of an old K-class server?

[Andrew Shugg]

willy@thepuffingroup.com said:
> On Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 07:48:49AM +0800, Andrew Shugg wrote:
> > I'm a bit confused by this.  I thought the HP 375 was a PA-RISC thingy.
> > Certainly there have been numerous people on this list talking about getting
> > their 315's or whatever to boot the parisc-linux kernel.
> 
> Do you perhaps mean the 735 and 715?

Ahah - brilliant!  This indeed what I meant.  Thanks.

> > Is a PA7000 not a PA-RISC chip?
> 
> Yes, it is.  To complicate matters, there are PA7000 CPUs which implement
> the PA1.0 architecture (PCX) and PA7000 CPUs which implement the PA1.1
> architecture (PCX-S).  The intention is to support the latter and not
> the former.
> 
> Less than a year ago, I didn't know the difference between a PA1.0 and
> PA1.1 machine :-)

Okay.  =)  Is it clear at this point what is definitely going to be supported
(even if it doesn't work now), and what will _never_ be supported?  (ie,
basically, what has 1.0 and what has 1.1?)

Andrew.

--
Andrew Shugg <andrew@neep.com.au>                http://www.neep.com.au/

  "Just remember Basil, there's always someone worse off than yourself."
  "Oh, really?  I'd like to meet him ... I could do with a good laugh."
                 [ Sybil and Basil Fawlty, "Fawlty Towers" ]

Re: [parisc-linux] Value of an old K-class server?

[willy]

On Thu, Mar 02, 2000 at 09:02:12PM +0800, Andrew Shugg wrote:
> Okay.  =)  Is it clear at this point what is definitely going to be supported
> (even if it doesn't work now), and what will _never_ be supported?  (ie,
> basically, what has 1.0 and what has 1.1?)

Well, I'm glad you asked me that :-)

I've just spent a fair bit of time, with Dave Kennedy's help, updating the
PARISC Hardware Database.  If you click on the `PA-7000 (PCX)' link under
`CPU types', you'll see that Stan Sieler is going to be disappointed that
he hung on to his 834, but his 705 will work nicely as it's a PA-7000
(PCX-S).

Re: [parisc-linux] Value of an old K-class server?

[Stan Sieler]

Re:

> `CPU types', you'll see that Stan Sieler is going to be disappointed that
> he hung on to his 834, but his 705 will work nicely as it's a PA-7000
> (PCX-S).

We keep the 9000/834 as our HP-UX 10.10 test machine...
last year, it was turned on for about 10 days (out of 365).  
This year, we haven't turned it on yet :)

No...I don't intend to run Linux on it...too slow!

-- 
Stan Sieler                                           sieler@allegro.com
www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html          www.allegro.com/sieler

Re: [parisc-linux] Value of an old K-class server?

[Sandy Harris]

willy@thepuffingroup.com wrote:
> 
> On Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 01:06:47AM +0800, Andrew Shugg wrote:
> > The lowest-numbered K class machine I can find on HP's website is a K220.
> > I'm fairly sure the machine I've looked at is a K200, but if this model
> > never existed then it's probably a 220.  =)
> 
> I've just been going through The List of hardware, bashing the hw database
> into something more sane.  The K200 did exist, codenamed `Kittyhawk' with
> a 100MHz PA7200 CPU in it.

I don't know these servers, but I've a friend who deals machines of about
that generation, buying them in truckload lots and reselling. Recent
prices from him, in Canadian $:

         RAM	disk	monitor	quantity
712/60   128	no	no	16	$ 50 apiece.
715/100  256    no      19"     1	$200

Re: [parisc-linux] Value of an old K-class server?

[Sandy Harris]

Steve Shack wrote:
> 
> Sandy Harris wrote:
> 
> > I don't know these servers, but I've a friend who deals machines of about
> > that generation, buying them in truckload lots and reselling. Recent
> > prices from him, in Canadian $:
> >
> >          RAM    disk    monitor quantity
> > 712/60   128    no      no      16      $ 50 apiece.
> > 715/100  256    no      19"     1       $200
> 
> If he can find me a 712/100 with 128+megs ram i'd buy that in a
> second. Care to pass that on to him?

I bought the only 100 I've seen so far and have already told him I'll
take all the 712/100s he gets. They seem to be mostly 60s. 712s take
128 maximum RAM. 715s can go to 256 and have room for more drives. My
guess is a 715/100 might suit you.

I waited to respond to this, and the other messages asking for details,
until I had his permission to post his email address:

jan@magma.ca

Location is a small town outside Ottawa. He also has lots of Suns, if
anyone here cares :-)

Re: [parisc-linux] Value of an old K-class server?

[Barrie Spence]

Sandy Harris <sandy@storm.ca> wrote:
> 712s take
> 128 maximum RAM. 715s can go to 256 and have room for more drives. My
> guess is a 715/100 might suit you.

A 712/100 should have 6 RAM slots giving up to 192Mb.

Barrie


--
Barrie Spence			Sanity Clause? There is no Sanity Clause
Home: b.spence@ieee.org		Telephone +44 1506 442304
Play: barrie_spence@agilent.com

Re: [parisc-linux] Value of an old K-class server

[T. Martin]

On Sun, 5 Mar 2000, Barrie Spence wrote:

> Sandy Harris <sandy@storm.ca> wrote:
> > 712s take
> > 128 maximum RAM. 715s can go to 256 and have room for more drives. My
> > guess is a 715/100 might suit you.
> 
> A 712/100 should have 6 RAM slots giving up to 192Mb.
> 

 Exactly what kind of Ram does the 715 series use, I tried some in a PC
and it doesn't work. I get about 48 megs extra from old boxes in 8 meg
simms. 

Terry
 

Re: [parisc-linux] Value of an old K-class server

[Frank Benke]

"T. Martin" schrieb:

> On Sun, 5 Mar 2000, Barrie Spence wrote:
>
> > Sandy Harris <sandy@storm.ca> wrote:
> > > 712s take
> > > 128 maximum RAM. 715s can go to 256 and have room for more drives. My
> > > guess is a 715/100 might suit you.
> >
> > A 712/100 should have 6 RAM slots giving up to 192Mb.
> >
>
>  Exactly what kind of Ram does the 715 series use, I tried some in a PC
> and it doesn't work. I get about 48 megs extra from old boxes in 8 meg
> simms.
>
> Terry
>

afaik: the 715 have special memories, which look like ps2 but aren't. i'm not
even sure if the 712 and 715 use the same simms. you should definitely look for
dedicated 715 memories. i have the same problem with 735s, which use their own
memory design.

regards frank

>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe: send e-mail to parisc-linux-request@thepuffingroup.com with
> `unsubscribe' as the subject.

Re: [parisc-linux] Value of an old K-class server

[Barrie Spence]

Frank Benke <frank.benke@web.de> wrote:
> 
> afaik: the 715 have special memories, which look like ps2 but aren't.

definitely

> i'm not even sure if the 712 and 715 use the same simms. you should
> definitely look for dedicated 715 memories.

712/715 RAM is compatible, though I believe that the 712s and the
newer 715s used slightly faster specs than the original 715/{33,55,75}s.

> i have the same problem with 735s, which use their own
> memory design.

The 735 memory is the same as 720/730/750/755 if it helps, but note
that the 720/730 machines can't use the higher density modules
introduced with the 735/755 machines. 

Barrie


--
Barrie Spence			Sanity Clause? There is no Sanity Clause
Home: b.spence@ieee.org		Telephone +44 1506 442304
Play: barrie_spence@agilent.com

Re: [parisc-linux] Value of an old K-class server?

[rob hoppe]

Andrew Shugg wrote:

> Greetings noble list dwellers,
>
> I have emerged from my long lurk to ask for some help on a vaguely related
> issue.  I have my eye on a K200 which has been decommissioned, but the
> company won't let go of it until someone ("official") can tell them what
> it's worth.  I've been waiting for them to just give up and sell it to me
> very cheaply, but I don't want to miss my chance.
>
> The lowest-numbered K class machine I can find on HP's website is a K220.
> I'm fairly sure the machine I've looked at is a K200, but if this model
> never existed then it's probably a 220.  =)
>
> My understanding is that it has a single CPU, either 128 or 256MB of RAM,
> and around 16GB of disk.  It also has in it some kind of cradle or something
> for putting more memory into it - something that is (apparently) not usually
> included with such a beast.
>
> This is in Australia, but if anyone can name a figure in their local currency
> I'll work it out.
>
> When or if I get it, it will be joining my HP 375/125 in helping with testing
> for the parisc-linux project, hence the vague relation to this list.  =)
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Andrew.
>
> P.S.  A quick attempt with HP's on-line calculator says that a new base-line
>       K-class (K360, 1 CPU, 1GB RAM, 9GB disk) would cost AUS$85,000.  Eek.
>
> --
> Andrew Shugg <andrew@neep.com.au>                http://www.neep.com.au/
>
>   "Just remember Basil, there's always someone worse off than yourself."
>   "Oh, really?  I'd like to meet him ... I could do with a good laugh."
>                  [ Sybil and Basil Fawlty, "Fawlty Towers" ]
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe: send e-mail to parisc-linux-request@thepuffingroup.com with
> `unsubscribe' as the subject.

If you can send the info to troy@flagshiptech.com he can tell you the value in
$US.  The tray you are talking about is a memory carrier.  It is faster with two
memory carriers.  The model number is inside of the door on a label.  If you can
provide the model number on the memory troy can tell you the size.  You can call
troy at 7705698188.  Let him know rob sent you his way.

Rob


--
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
_/                            _/
_/   Rob Hoppe                _/
_/   770-995-5099             _/
_/   770-560-1050 cell        _/
_/   770-338-5885 fax         _/
_/                            _/
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/

Re: [parisc-linux] Value of an old K-class server?

[Mike Hibler]

> I'm a bit confused by this.  I thought the HP 375 was a PA-RISC thingy.
> Certainly there have been numerous people on this list talking about getting
> their 315's or whatever to boot the parisc-linux kernel.
	
I assume you are talking about an HP 735/125 and 715 which are PA-RISC.
An HP 375 is a 33Mhz mc68030 box.  An HP 315 was, lets see..., a 25Mhz
68020 I think.

Re: [parisc-linux] Value of an old K-class server?

[Mike Hibler]

> Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 21:02:12 +0800
> From: Andrew Shugg <andrew@neep.com.au>
> To: parisc-linux@thepuffingroup.com
> Subject: Re: [parisc-linux] Value of an old K-class server?
> 
> Okay.  =)  Is it clear at this point what is definitely going to be supported
> (even if it doesn't work now), and what will _never_ be supported?  (ie,
> basically, what has 1.0 and what has 1.1?)
> 

Your 715 and 735 should be fairly easy to support, even if they aren't one
of the current active development platforms.  They are 1.1 machines with
fairly "stock" off-the-shelf IO components very similar or identical to
some of the machines that are being worked on.

The "hard" machines will be 1.0 based machines (due to lack of architectural
features such as shadow registers and block TLBs that are probably assumed to
exist by the Linux code) and those with the different IO architectures
(CIO and NIO-based).  Note that the latter can be 1.1 (or 2.0?) based
machines, so you cannot just say that 1.1 machines will work.

Note that I speak not as an active developer of Linux, but as someone who
worked on Mach/BSD on these machines.  So believe the Puffin people more
than me!  They have a lot more resources available then we did, so things
might not be as hard for them.