From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=5Jbi183m0TzluzNkv0DodmYg38STdcfALNs2QkQx/ZQ=; b=GyiBWcN9aKw6m/tQhm05EfDoST8lxs1IRtLYYNKk4WbfS+/gNbaYUa/PhLjUg74Mjh eg9PACbyuL1jsECSLCqYAyUUY97g8vAZdQiU77TW9cJG2iEOQVOqVwmUNoOKe0ZevXXj sL0Fmw2kquiAlJLTbmeBkMogaa4Ypt4AlKJ7kcYEPsq37VELQ7r1IzEmyZliG1IXMzhX aj0PcXZyxX1DMOUg1ZOo8TwiqiEBaeQbFsv4H4w0TrpwdslzetEzeJHZOOWIf1dymIJE 0aFOFBKs6BVO8vgIIRHH3982I9MU5a/L5Agxb/0Z8/YqO5dOqGvQXWzy7rwyhkiwcOLS l4og== References: <79214066-3886-e0ef-f26e-8cb3d53404be@linuxfoundation.org> <20200709124327.369781a0@coco.lan> <93fc3afb-8c3f-0fb9-3b92-adfb6571e060@linuxfoundation.org> From: Tibor Raschko Message-ID: <3fe09e6e-5d4c-857e-0486-81c0a164f0c0@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2020 11:38:02 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <93fc3afb-8c3f-0fb9-3b92-adfb6571e060@linuxfoundation.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [Tech-board-discuss] [Ksummit-discuss] [PATCH] CodingStyle: Inclusive Terminology List-Id: Public TAB discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , To: Shuah Khan , Mauro Carvalho Chehab Cc: ksummit-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org, Greg Kroah-Hartman , linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, tech-board-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org, Chris Mason , torvalds@linux-foundation.org >>> Nobody has a problem understanding "blacklist" and "whitelist". These >>> are universally understood words even outside of computing. Claiming >>> that we need clearer alternatives is smoke and mirrors. >> >> Actually, as a non-native English speaker, the first time I saw >> "list", I had to do some research in order to understand what it >> means :-) You have to research and lookup *any* new words in a language when you see them the first time. You'd also have to look up "allow" when seeing it for the first time too. > Thanks for the perspective. This is why we need clear and uniform words. > Our community is global. English isn't English everywhere either. > So, the proposed alternatives "allowlist" and "denylist" are better because they are not English but are in some kind of a global language? Your argumentation doesn't seem to pan out. The language in the Linux source is English, and in that language "blacklist" has a meaning that is not limited to computing but is universal, irrespective of the field of science, and is even used in everyday life. And this meaning isn't associated with ethnic differences. As I stated multiple times, I support removing all references to slavery and masters. But trying to avoid "blacklist" is not just pointless but also useless. The real problem is that "black" by itself already has a negative connotation. so instead of blocking words unrelated to ethnicity, we should not call Afro-Americans "blacks" anymore. The problem is that a group of people are marked with "black" which is a word with black connotation. We should stop calling them blacks, and that'd be a real solution (at least as far as the language is concerned). Raschko T. From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on aws-us-west-2-korg-lkml-1.web.codeaurora.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=3.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,SPF_HELO_NONE,SPF_PASS, USER_AGENT_SANE_1 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 Received: from mail.kernel.org (mail.kernel.org [198.145.29.99]) by smtp.lore.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B34B5C433E0 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 2020 09:38:07 +0000 (UTC) Received: from vger.kernel.org (vger.kernel.org [23.128.96.18]) by mail.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C561206E2 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 2020 09:38:07 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: mail.kernel.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b="GyiBWcN9" Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S1727110AbgGJJiG (ORCPT ); Fri, 10 Jul 2020 05:38:06 -0400 Received: from lindbergh.monkeyblade.net ([23.128.96.19]:55216 "EHLO lindbergh.monkeyblade.net" rhost-flags-OK-OK-OK-OK) by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S1726288AbgGJJiF (ORCPT ); Fri, 10 Jul 2020 05:38:05 -0400 Received: from mail-wr1-x443.google.com (mail-wr1-x443.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::443]) by lindbergh.monkeyblade.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9C544C08C5CE for ; Fri, 10 Jul 2020 02:38:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr1-x443.google.com with SMTP id s10so5201037wrw.12 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 2020 02:38:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=5Jbi183m0TzluzNkv0DodmYg38STdcfALNs2QkQx/ZQ=; b=GyiBWcN9aKw6m/tQhm05EfDoST8lxs1IRtLYYNKk4WbfS+/gNbaYUa/PhLjUg74Mjh eg9PACbyuL1jsECSLCqYAyUUY97g8vAZdQiU77TW9cJG2iEOQVOqVwmUNoOKe0ZevXXj sL0Fmw2kquiAlJLTbmeBkMogaa4Ypt4AlKJ7kcYEPsq37VELQ7r1IzEmyZliG1IXMzhX aj0PcXZyxX1DMOUg1ZOo8TwiqiEBaeQbFsv4H4w0TrpwdslzetEzeJHZOOWIf1dymIJE 0aFOFBKs6BVO8vgIIRHH3982I9MU5a/L5Agxb/0Z8/YqO5dOqGvQXWzy7rwyhkiwcOLS l4og== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=5Jbi183m0TzluzNkv0DodmYg38STdcfALNs2QkQx/ZQ=; b=aUTP/g9oCHQhC/l3KiyCHkHAsplhf7u++MaznxbMlm1wg2+5kf8hPSAmHRvFclsxJJ 8rkXaBIHbZJQfeDhiMJ7bbDNipvHMaVIdIEiV7WINcpRxgGYPI4DaLbSNW5rHZmcVmz1 1P+0niWbYt5D04gCk9MPHeHXD6uA9Aazwgl5yWQ1Jr3c39sBDm0FQIEparK64crb4Zcy VZvB9MjdlPZG7yAHS8S36NMM/3NqZ9pQP3LOeqEgjCaOrYkyZ/73tx9BG+ywPznrRY2O Epx+aGoXY7o+TY2r0hboRwbWpa9hIgU8Q+38w0YZCqVl8idJ/67ZHJj2PAz+ycIY5QTO EpTQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533SPp0HNo92PeZUUJJaKdCSf16yeodIa/O6vsllSfEgcxzlaGdq 3tTVhBM9OcJ3xQ2/XIG+hKo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJznGlgg1F1mQUDcrnL9PEQ/a32anoUrwebL0aWIjufbe7noJbHz3PKFyxkvNF3DqwLiHzkYZw== X-Received: by 2002:a5d:470c:: with SMTP id y12mr27411645wrq.340.1594373884392; Fri, 10 Jul 2020 02:38:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2a01:36d:103:26a8:de2:306:5f14:1695? 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[2a01:36d:103:26a8:de2:306:5f14:1695]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id z25sm7838739wmk.28.2020.07.10.02.38.03 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 10 Jul 2020 02:38:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Ksummit-discuss] [Tech-board-discuss] [PATCH] CodingStyle: Inclusive Terminology To: Shuah Khan , Mauro Carvalho Chehab Cc: Dan Williams , torvalds@linux-foundation.org, ksummit-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org, Greg Kroah-Hartman , linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, tech-board-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org, Chris Mason References: <79214066-3886-e0ef-f26e-8cb3d53404be@linuxfoundation.org> <20200709124327.369781a0@coco.lan> <93fc3afb-8c3f-0fb9-3b92-adfb6571e060@linuxfoundation.org> From: Tibor Raschko Message-ID: <3fe09e6e-5d4c-857e-0486-81c0a164f0c0@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2020 11:38:02 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <93fc3afb-8c3f-0fb9-3b92-adfb6571e060@linuxfoundation.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org >>> Nobody has a problem understanding "blacklist" and "whitelist". These >>> are universally understood words even outside of computing. Claiming >>> that we need clearer alternatives is smoke and mirrors. >> >> Actually, as a non-native English speaker, the first time I saw >> "list", I had to do some research in order to understand what it >> means :-) You have to research and lookup *any* new words in a language when you see them the first time. You'd also have to look up "allow" when seeing it for the first time too. > Thanks for the perspective. This is why we need clear and uniform words. > Our community is global. English isn't English everywhere either. > So, the proposed alternatives "allowlist" and "denylist" are better because they are not English but are in some kind of a global language? Your argumentation doesn't seem to pan out. The language in the Linux source is English, and in that language "blacklist" has a meaning that is not limited to computing but is universal, irrespective of the field of science, and is even used in everyday life. And this meaning isn't associated with ethnic differences. As I stated multiple times, I support removing all references to slavery and masters. But trying to avoid "blacklist" is not just pointless but also useless. The real problem is that "black" by itself already has a negative connotation. so instead of blocking words unrelated to ethnicity, we should not call Afro-Americans "blacks" anymore. The problem is that a group of people are marked with "black" which is a word with black connotation. We should stop calling them blacks, and that'd be a real solution (at least as far as the language is concerned). Raschko T.