From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Hans Reiser Subject: Re: silent semantic changes with reiser4 Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 02:55:00 -0700 Message-ID: <41305674.6030405@namesys.com> References: <412D9FE6.9050307@namesys.com> <200408261812.i7QICW8r002679@localhost.localdomain> <20040827203216.GC1284@nysv.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Return-path: list-help: list-unsubscribe: list-post: Errors-To: flx@namesys.com In-Reply-To: List-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format="flowed" To: Linus Torvalds Cc: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Markus_T=F6rnqvist?= , Horst von Brand , Andrew Morton , hch@lst.de, linux-fsdevel@vger.kernel.org, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, flx@namesys.com, reiserfs-list@namesys.com Linus Torvalds wrote: >On Fri, 27 Aug 2004, Markus T=F6rnqvist wrote: > =20 > >>People will say it when people stop using Linux on servers because >>they can integrate metadata easier in other operating systems ;) >> =20 >> > >Heh. Considering that WinFS seems to be delayed yet more, I don't think=20 >that's a very strong argument. > >Hell will freeze over before Microsoft does a filesystem right. Besides, >WinFS is likely almost in user mode anyway, ie mostly a library, rather >like the gnome people are already doing with nome storage. > >So there's really no point in trying to push your agenda by trying to=20 >scare people with MS activities. Linux kernel developers do what's right=20 >because it is _right_, not because somebody else does it. > > Linus > > > =20 > Apple will get it right. I promise it. I have met Dominic, and he is=20 very very sharp. Look at the Tiger demos on their website. Simple=20 interface, looks nice to me....=20 The one area he might screw up is performance, but I don't care to count=20 on that. WinFS first tried to put it all in the FS, and then it became a user=20 mode library almost certainly because they are making the standard=20 mistakes the database guys make when they try to emulate file systems=20 without changing the core balanced tree algorithms, and their=20 performance sucked and they had to back off. It took 11 years for me to=20 get it right, and they aren't as crazy-err-persistent as I am.;-) We might get lucky and have them produce another NTFS, but then again,=20 when Microsoft focuses on a task, they do much better at it than they do=20 most of the time, and they are focused on WinFS. They have hired very=20 sharp people. We can hope that they don't know how to use them, but=20 when they hire people like Gerard Salton for $1 million a year, there is=20 just possibly a chance that they might try to get their money's worth=20 out of him. You should not be complacent about WinFS being delayed to 2007, because=20 even if I get funding for enhanced ReiserFS semantics tomorrow we also=20 can't get the job done before 2007. This is big science, not writing a=20 device driver. Finally, how much harm will it be if we do it right and it is important=20 and they fail? Suppose I am wrong about them, and we create a powerful=20 unifying namespace for Linux before any other OS does? Is that so bad? Creating a powerful namespace at the heart of Linux is the most=20 important enhancement you can make to the OS.=20 Finally the storage layer is good enough to support putting the=20 relationship between keywords (actually keyobjects in my scheme....) and=20 their documents directly into the FS without losing performance for=20 traditional file system usage patterns, and I get to stop tweaking=20 performance and go have fun with semantics in the next major release. Hans