alsa cvs broken

alsa cvs broken

[James Courtier-Dutton]

Hi,

Is it just me, or is the ssh access to the cvs broken?
Would it be worth considering switching to using git or hg (mecurial)?

James




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Re: alsa cvs broken

[Takashi Iwai]

At Mon, 03 Apr 2006 12:18:00 +0100,
James Courtier-Dutton wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Is it just me, or is the ssh access to the cvs broken?

Yeah it's been broken since last week.

> Would it be worth considering switching to using git or hg (mecurial)?

I'd love to switch, but surely it will bring quite amount of
confusion.  Anyhow, it should be after releasing 1.0.11-final.


Takashi


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Re: alsa cvs broken

[James Courtier-Dutton]

Takashi Iwai wrote:
> At Mon, 03 Apr 2006 12:18:00 +0100,
> James Courtier-Dutton wrote:
>   
>> Would it be worth considering switching to using git or hg (mecurial)?
>>     
>
> I'd love to switch, but surely it will bring quite amount of
> confusion.  Anyhow, it should be after releasing 1.0.11-final.
>
>
> Takashi
>   
Ok, which do you prefer, hg or git.
I think hg might be more suitable for our needs(developers writing 
code), and it has a simple interface for git pulls as well.
git is better suited for people deciding whether or not to include 
patches or not, but is not so good for developers.

James



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Re: alsa cvs broken

[Jaroslav Kysela]

On Mon, 3 Apr 2006, James Courtier-Dutton wrote:

> Takashi Iwai wrote:
> > At Mon, 03 Apr 2006 12:18:00 +0100,
> > James Courtier-Dutton wrote:
> > 
> > > Would it be worth considering switching to using git or hg
> > > (mecurial)?
> > > 
> > 
> > I'd love to switch, but surely it will bring quite amount of
> > confusion.  Anyhow, it should be after releasing 1.0.11-final.
> > 
> > 
> > Takashi
> > 
> Ok, which do you prefer, hg or git. I think hg might be more suitable 
> for our needs(developers writing code), and it has a simple interface 
> for git pulls as well. git is better suited for people deciding whether 
> or not to include patches or not, but is not so good for developers.

Is hg stable enough?

						Jaroslav

-----
Jaroslav Kysela <perex@suse.cz>
Linux Kernel Sound Maintainer
ALSA Project, SUSE Labs


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Re: alsa cvs broken

[Takashi Iwai]

At Mon, 3 Apr 2006 14:39:15 +0200 (CEST),
Jaroslav Kysela wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 3 Apr 2006, James Courtier-Dutton wrote:
> 
> > Takashi Iwai wrote:
> > > At Mon, 03 Apr 2006 12:18:00 +0100,
> > > James Courtier-Dutton wrote:
> > > 
> > > > Would it be worth considering switching to using git or hg
> > > > (mecurial)?
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > I'd love to switch, but surely it will bring quite amount of
> > > confusion.  Anyhow, it should be after releasing 1.0.11-final.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Takashi
> > > 
> > Ok, which do you prefer, hg or git. I think hg might be more suitable 
> > for our needs(developers writing code), and it has a simple interface 
> > for git pulls as well. git is better suited for people deciding whether 
> > or not to include patches or not, but is not so good for developers.
> 
> Is hg stable enough?

Yes, it's pretty stable now.
But if we switch to another one, it'd be better to run both CVS and
hg/git parallel in a short term for checking the stability and
usability.

Another question is which host.  Suggestions?


Takashi


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Re: alsa cvs broken

[Jaroslav Kysela]

On Mon, 3 Apr 2006, Takashi Iwai wrote:

> > Is hg stable enough?
> 
> Yes, it's pretty stable now.
> But if we switch to another one, it'd be better to run both CVS and
> hg/git parallel in a short term for checking the stability and
> usability.
> 
> Another question is which host.  Suggestions?

I can create a hg/git repository on my machine. If we find some trouble 
with it, we can look for another solution.

I must say that git looks too much "kernel" oriented and sometimes 
hard-to-use. Mercurial has my sympatics, because it uses Python (on other 
hand, it might imply some performance issues).

I would start with mercurial and we'll see then.

						Jaroslav

-----
Jaroslav Kysela <perex@suse.cz>
Linux Kernel Sound Maintainer
ALSA Project, SUSE Labs


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Re: alsa cvs broken

[Takashi Iwai]

At Mon, 3 Apr 2006 15:08:26 +0200 (CEST),
Jaroslav Kysela wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 3 Apr 2006, Takashi Iwai wrote:
> 
> > > Is hg stable enough?
> > 
> > Yes, it's pretty stable now.
> > But if we switch to another one, it'd be better to run both CVS and
> > hg/git parallel in a short term for checking the stability and
> > usability.
> > 
> > Another question is which host.  Suggestions?
> 
> I can create a hg/git repository on my machine. If we find some trouble 
> with it, we can look for another solution.

Hm, wasn't the trouble of CVS on alsa-projerct.org one of reasons we
moved to sf.net...?

> I must say that git looks too much "kernel" oriented and sometimes 
> hard-to-use. Mercurial has my sympatics, because it uses Python (on other 
> hand, it might imply some performance issues).

AFAIK, no performance hit on hg due to python-scripting.


Takashi


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Re: alsa cvs broken

[Jaroslav Kysela]

On Mon, 3 Apr 2006, Takashi Iwai wrote:

> At Mon, 3 Apr 2006 15:08:26 +0200 (CEST),
> Jaroslav Kysela wrote:
> > 
> > On Mon, 3 Apr 2006, Takashi Iwai wrote:
> > 
> > > > Is hg stable enough?
> > > 
> > > Yes, it's pretty stable now.
> > > But if we switch to another one, it'd be better to run both CVS and
> > > hg/git parallel in a short term for checking the stability and
> > > usability.
> > > 
> > > Another question is which host.  Suggestions?
> > 
> > I can create a hg/git repository on my machine. If we find some trouble 
> > with it, we can look for another solution.
> 
> Hm, wasn't the trouble of CVS on alsa-projerct.org one of reasons we
> moved to sf.net...?

I mean another machine (which actually hosts ALSA BTS - mantisbt). We can 
eventually mirror the repository to other servers (it will work much 
better than for CVS).

						Jaroslav

-----
Jaroslav Kysela <perex@suse.cz>
Linux Kernel Sound Maintainer
ALSA Project, SUSE Labs


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Re: alsa cvs broken

[Takashi Iwai]

At Mon, 3 Apr 2006 15:22:05 +0200 (CEST),
Jaroslav Kysela wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 3 Apr 2006, Takashi Iwai wrote:
> 
> > At Mon, 3 Apr 2006 15:08:26 +0200 (CEST),
> > Jaroslav Kysela wrote:
> > > 
> > > On Mon, 3 Apr 2006, Takashi Iwai wrote:
> > > 
> > > > > Is hg stable enough?
> > > > 
> > > > Yes, it's pretty stable now.
> > > > But if we switch to another one, it'd be better to run both CVS and
> > > > hg/git parallel in a short term for checking the stability and
> > > > usability.
> > > > 
> > > > Another question is which host.  Suggestions?
> > > 
> > > I can create a hg/git repository on my machine. If we find some trouble 
> > > with it, we can look for another solution.
> > 
> > Hm, wasn't the trouble of CVS on alsa-projerct.org one of reasons we
> > moved to sf.net...?
> 
> I mean another machine (which actually hosts ALSA BTS - mantisbt). We can 
> eventually mirror the repository to other servers (it will work much 
> better than for CVS).

It's your private server with ADSL, or a server on university?
I'm afraid of bandwidth consumed by hg/git.  At the first run, they
require the download of the whole repository.  It can be a big amount
of bits.


Takashi


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Re: alsa cvs broken

[James Courtier-Dutton]

Takashi Iwai wrote:
>> I must say that git looks too much "kernel" oriented and sometimes 
>> hard-to-use. Mercurial has my sympatics, because it uses Python (on other 
>> hand, it might imply some performance issues).
>>     
>
> AFAIK, no performance hit on hg due to python-scripting.
>
>
> Takashi
>   

hg seems pretty fast from what I have seen. We had a "battle" at the 
kernel summit, Linus driving git, Matt driving hg. It was fun to watch, 
as they each asked the other to try an operation, and compared speed and 
ease of use.
I would not say that is was particularly scientifically measured, but 
the main impression I got from it, is that git is good for reviewing 
code and deciding what get's included, hg is better for the source code 
developer.
I think both git and hg were as fast as CVS or SVN is now.
For example, hg has all the performance critical stuff written in C 
anyway! E.g. 3 way diff.

James




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Re: alsa cvs broken

[Jaroslav Kysela]

On Mon, 3 Apr 2006, James Courtier-Dutton wrote:

> For example, hg has all the performance critical stuff written in C anyway!
> E.g. 3 way diff.

Yep, I noticed these C modules during mercurial installation ;-)

						Jaroslav

-----
Jaroslav Kysela <perex@suse.cz>
Linux Kernel Sound Maintainer
ALSA Project, SUSE Labs


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Re: alsa cvs broken

[Rene Herman]

Jaroslav Kysela wrote:

> I must say that git looks too much "kernel" oriented and sometimes 
> hard-to-use. Mercurial has my sympatics, because it uses Python (on
> other hand, it might imply some performance issues).
> 
> I would start with mercurial and we'll see then.

Mind a vote against mercurial, and for GIT? Not because I think GIT is 
necesarily (and at the moment) better -- I in fact don't know either yet 
in any detail.

GIT is the kernel SCM though and unless it's really significantly worse, 
I believe it's better to simply use it. I've been looking to get into 
ALSA a bit for example, and I'd really not appreciate having to learn 
yet another SCM when I'm going to be making use of GIT for all the other 
kernel stuff anyway.

GIT is also still picking up speed. Keith Packard was even converting X 
CVS for example. Mercurial might be good I guess, but it's also very 
likely going to be one of those "oh no, not yet another" ones, maybe 
even keeping potential developers away.

Rene.


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Re: alsa cvs broken

[Takashi Iwai]

At Mon, 03 Apr 2006 18:05:32 +0200,
Rene Herman wrote:
> 
> Jaroslav Kysela wrote:
> 
> > I must say that git looks too much "kernel" oriented and sometimes 
> > hard-to-use. Mercurial has my sympatics, because it uses Python (on
> > other hand, it might imply some performance issues).
> > 
> > I would start with mercurial and we'll see then.
> 
> Mind a vote against mercurial, and for GIT? Not because I think GIT is 
> necesarily (and at the moment) better -- I in fact don't know either yet 
> in any detail.
> 
> GIT is the kernel SCM though and unless it's really significantly worse, 
> I believe it's better to simply use it. I've been looking to get into 
> ALSA a bit for example, and I'd really not appreciate having to learn 
> yet another SCM when I'm going to be making use of GIT for all the other 
> kernel stuff anyway.

It's true that git would be in favor from the kernel viewpoint.
However, ALSA has pretty many other stuff.  The kernel code is even a
small part.

What I'm not quite sure is the push-functionality of git.  If we have
a main development tree, the patches are pushed by multiple
developers.  It's a different use from kernel trees.

If the multiple push works fine with git, I have nothing against it at
all.

> GIT is also still picking up speed. Keith Packard was even converting X 
> CVS for example. Mercurial might be good I guess, but it's also very 
> likely going to be one of those "oh no, not yet another" ones, maybe 
> even keeping potential developers away.

We can anyway provide a nightly tarball for lazy developers :)
Let's evaluate both first.


Takashi


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Re: alsa cvs broken

[Jaroslav Kysela]

On Mon, 3 Apr 2006, Takashi Iwai wrote:

> > GIT is also still picking up speed. Keith Packard was even converting X 
> > CVS for example. Mercurial might be good I guess, but it's also very 
> > likely going to be one of those "oh no, not yet another" ones, maybe 
> > even keeping potential developers away.
> 
> We can anyway provide a nightly tarball for lazy developers :)
> Let's evaluate both first.

Note that most of other developers are sending us standard unified diffs 
(and this way will remain). If you use internally for development GIT
or HG is another thing. We will maintain the ALSA GIT tree as well for the 
kernel development, but our code is not only kernel code.

After one day experience with HG I must say that I'm quite happy and the 
commands are far more intuitive and simple than git. The big plus is 
ability to use the mercurial python module directly for advanced 
scripting (like ALSA HG -> ALSA GIT conversion).

						Jaroslav

-----
Jaroslav Kysela <perex@suse.cz>
Linux Kernel Sound Maintainer
ALSA Project, SUSE Labs


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Re: alsa cvs broken

[Takashi Iwai]

At Wed, 5 Apr 2006 13:05:10 +0200 (CEST),
Jaroslav Kysela wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 3 Apr 2006, Takashi Iwai wrote:
> 
> > > GIT is also still picking up speed. Keith Packard was even converting X 
> > > CVS for example. Mercurial might be good I guess, but it's also very 
> > > likely going to be one of those "oh no, not yet another" ones, maybe 
> > > even keeping potential developers away.
> > 
> > We can anyway provide a nightly tarball for lazy developers :)
> > Let's evaluate both first.
> 
> Note that most of other developers are sending us standard unified diffs 
> (and this way will remain). If you use internally for development GIT
> or HG is another thing. We will maintain the ALSA GIT tree as well for the 
> kernel development, but our code is not only kernel code.

I think Rene's point is :

- git gets more popular than hg (not only for kernels like Keith's
  case)
- developers are too lazy to install hg extra only for ALSA

I'm not sure whether both assumptions are correct or not.


Takashi


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Re: alsa cvs broken

[James Courtier-Dutton]

The CVS seems to be working again.

Shall I check my next patch it via CVS or HG?

James



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Re: alsa cvs broken

[Rene Herman]

Takashi Iwai wrote:

> Jaroslav Kysela wrote:

>> Note that most of other developers are sending us standard unified diffs 
>> (and this way will remain). If you use internally for development GIT
>> or HG is another thing. We will maintain the ALSA GIT tree as well for the 
>> kernel development, but our code is not only kernel code.
> 
> I think Rene's point is :
> 
> - git gets more popular than hg (not only for kernels like Keith's
>   case)
> - developers are too lazy to install hg extra only for ALSA

Well, not so much "lazy" though :-) All's fine and well if you do this 
stuff for a living but if you're the peripheral type that just submits 
the occasional bugfix, an unfamiliar development environment will not 
help bring you _beyond_ that occasional unidiff point to more active 
involvement.

My vote for GIT was just that though, one vote...

Rene.





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Re: alsa cvs broken

[Takashi Iwai]

At Wed, 05 Apr 2006 20:04:22 +0200,
Rene Herman wrote:
> 
> Takashi Iwai wrote:
> 
> > Jaroslav Kysela wrote:
> 
> >> Note that most of other developers are sending us standard unified diffs 
> >> (and this way will remain). If you use internally for development GIT
> >> or HG is another thing. We will maintain the ALSA GIT tree as well for the 
> >> kernel development, but our code is not only kernel code.
> > 
> > I think Rene's point is :
> > 
> > - git gets more popular than hg (not only for kernels like Keith's
> >   case)
> > - developers are too lazy to install hg extra only for ALSA
> 
> Well, not so much "lazy" though :-) All's fine and well if you do this 
> stuff for a living but if you're the peripheral type that just submits 
> the occasional bugfix, an unfamiliar development environment will not 
> help bring you _beyond_ that occasional unidiff point to more active 
> involvement.

That's why I pointed about the nightly tarball.  It'll be much easier
than CVS for (even not lazy) people.

I meant no CVS-repo tarball but a tarball of an exported tree, ready
to use.


Takashi


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Re: alsa cvs broken

[Adrian McMenamin]

On Mon, 2006-04-03 at 14:07 +0200, Takashi Iwai wrote:
> At Mon, 03 Apr 2006 12:18:00 +0100,
> James Courtier-Dutton wrote:
> > 
> > Hi,
> > 
> > Is it just me, or is the ssh access to the cvs broken?
> 
> Yeah it's been broken since last week.
> 

I was planning to submit my driver today (with a bit of luck) does this
mean there is no point?



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Re: alsa cvs broken

[Takashi Iwai]

At Mon, 03 Apr 2006 13:30:16 +0100,
Adrian McMenamin wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 2006-04-03 at 14:07 +0200, Takashi Iwai wrote:
> > At Mon, 03 Apr 2006 12:18:00 +0100,
> > James Courtier-Dutton wrote:
> > > 
> > > Hi,
> > > 
> > > Is it just me, or is the ssh access to the cvs broken?
> > 
> > Yeah it's been broken since last week.
> > 
> 
> I was planning to submit my driver today (with a bit of luck) does this
> mean there is no point?

It's always good to submit patches as soon as possible.  We need to
review patches anwyay before merging.


Takashi


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Re: alsa cvs broken

[Adrian McMenamin]

On Mon, 2006-04-03 at 14:44 +0200, Takashi Iwai wrote:

> It's always good to submit patches as soon as possible.  We need to
> review patches anwyay before merging.

Indeed, but can I get a pristine set to patch is the issue?



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Re: alsa cvs broken

[Takashi Iwai]

At Mon, 03 Apr 2006 13:46:49 +0100,
Adrian McMenamin wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 2006-04-03 at 14:44 +0200, Takashi Iwai wrote:
> 
> > It's always good to submit patches as soon as possible.  We need to
> > review patches anwyay before merging.
> 
> Indeed, but can I get a pristine set to patch is the issue?

Reviewing your patch is the major matter at this stage.

It's likely that you'd need a small fix/adjustment for a first patch,
so the sync with the latest code can be done later.


Takashi


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