From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on aws-us-west-2-korg-lkml-1.web.codeaurora.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.0 required=3.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,SPF_HELO_NONE,SPF_PASS, USER_AGENT_SANE_1 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 Received: from mail.kernel.org (mail.kernel.org [198.145.29.99]) by smtp.lore.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFC6FC433DF for ; Tue, 7 Jul 2020 18:05:24 +0000 (UTC) Received: from whitealder.osuosl.org (smtp1.osuosl.org [140.211.166.138]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 86BF720708 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 2020 18:05:24 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: mail.kernel.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b="aEzU+QQi" DMARC-Filter: OpenDMARC Filter v1.3.2 mail.kernel.org 86BF720708 Authentication-Results: mail.kernel.org; dmarc=fail (p=none dis=none) header.from=gmail.com Authentication-Results: mail.kernel.org; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=ksummit-discuss-bounces@lists.linuxfoundation.org Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by whitealder.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 410B888F50; Tue, 7 Jul 2020 18:04:27 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org Received: from whitealder.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id r3YE7GWNh-8A; Tue, 7 Jul 2020 18:04:23 +0000 (UTC) Received: from lists.linuxfoundation.org (lf-lists.osuosl.org [140.211.9.56]) by whitealder.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3013388F6D; Tue, 7 Jul 2020 18:04:18 +0000 (UTC) Received: from lf-lists.osuosl.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01286C08A6; Tue, 7 Jul 2020 18:04:18 +0000 (UTC) Received: from whitealder.osuosl.org (smtp1.osuosl.org [140.211.166.138]) by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 710EFC016F; Tue, 7 Jul 2020 00:48:30 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by whitealder.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A26087C1A; Tue, 7 Jul 2020 00:48:30 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org Received: from whitealder.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id baxqljEXiWe3; Tue, 7 Jul 2020 00:48:29 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: domain auto-whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 X-Greylist: domain auto-whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 Received: from mail-wr1-f68.google.com (mail-wr1-f68.google.com [209.85.221.68]) by whitealder.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BAEB87BF6; Tue, 7 Jul 2020 00:48:29 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-wr1-f68.google.com with SMTP id f7so40293169wrw.1; Mon, 06 Jul 2020 17:48:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:subject:to:cc:references:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=PHhv6qtDtZXzF49Da3FQ68J1JWwelrTuXT4MT+d/caU=; b=aEzU+QQiyO+d/C5msmDuI178ZOTJym6eHcWcEGm52D2TkuE15w4Favr3Bmo8UNSa+a Q3Ko5g10x7/KSJAU2uh3TiWW6wgJ6FzkZf9WP6HyhxQ5dPpxWVBb0VX5IOJFc2pWrXQK J00fuUHT50dNMcadHz8Y8+TAIKeMPZO8ANyynChAQNU7hz7oK7QMWqAlbJRxO1QZLAkf S+ONIZEwX+pThxzgzf993qF2Vy4ONBhs7hJT6OlB2wivKfWfTSI2jBAlHobrtHvLO4L2 PiGgGfrDzCZ3q+Hbn0aaMxnYc4tx2U/bOgzWNnQhKfFGHr4mh3x2SiRVtS0PM8i2kYW5 N7lg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:subject:to:cc:references:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=PHhv6qtDtZXzF49Da3FQ68J1JWwelrTuXT4MT+d/caU=; b=tdR2qsWQTdsyV5ZBMlpvriDf0qztSH5rkuscnkAiuQY7fqm/xXsa/8n+bqLFnGRk9d rVjv9W/h9J1518tK/YLkEbL6E9BFE/2d31SjO7eVpyZuZZMgzELObcFOmiGBs2bktvD2 xa/TzfD07IAkcBeHHwUQ0eLQCjk1JASmvVoW3yLcyjpdULE/dpnxBJvN7HuS2PVwjrku ME53Mu6NKr7y1u1gqlVuwNQYFMomt6piQi4po3uciLyWdyq4ccP68dKet7uX+LF11rJp v51POsIwQUpJWqh0nIWTYLSN1Pv5XwgqVSG7fyoDxvDD+KEwFilsrTZCNiz+GQR1xT+y jpRg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530iAm8Us5rsGVdKwiFoAiKsMEtwERB7WQzLsfhZVcyRKUOod1G2 aN/tw8LavZ0bORM7OURIHCZNx0mj X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwde4GyvWgcYR6EKHS35BJJTV4Sg2r0YwQEk95QDzSvGpZtN7Nu75tw//9+e+6qASAkVU/Iqw== X-Received: by 2002:adf:f707:: with SMTP id r7mr50492428wrp.70.1594082907285; Mon, 06 Jul 2020 17:48:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.50.2] (178-164-237-246.pool.digikabel.hu. [178.164.237.246]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id l18sm26362320wrm.52.2020.07.06.17.48.26 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 06 Jul 2020 17:48:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Tibor Raschko To: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org References: <20200706191555.GD6176@sirena.org.uk> Message-ID: <44713cf0-db41-bdd0-a41e-d710c346be12@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 02:48:25 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200706191555.GD6176@sirena.org.uk> Content-Language: en-US X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 07 Jul 2020 18:04:13 +0000 Cc: Greg Kroah-Hartman , tech-board-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org, ksummit-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org Subject: Re: [Ksummit-discuss] [Tech-board-discuss] [PATCH] CodingStyle: Inclusive Terminology X-BeenThere: ksummit-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: ksummit-discuss-bounces@lists.linuxfoundation.org Sender: "Ksummit-discuss" > More generally etymological arguments are just not super relevant here > anyway, the issues people have are around current perceptions rather > than where things came from. This is where ignoring etymology in this case falls apart, claiming that the current meaning is more important than the historical one. Yes it should be more important, but it suggests that the current meaning is negative, which it is not. In computer science (context!) these words do not have any negative perception or connotation, and people in this field know this. Yes, outsiders might not know this and could misunderstand them. But since when do experts in computer science (or in any field of science for the matter) care if a layman can correctly understand the field's technical terms? We never did and never will, except in this particular case for some odd reason. Be honest: "blacklist" is a technical term where the actual meaning has no negative connotation despite what people outside the field might think. But apparently we don't care about the actual meaning. We also don't care about the historical meaning or etymology. We only care about... well if not about the meaning in the past or present, then I don't know what. Looking good in the media? _______________________________________________ Ksummit-discuss mailing list Ksummit-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ksummit-discuss From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:subject:to:cc:references:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=PHhv6qtDtZXzF49Da3FQ68J1JWwelrTuXT4MT+d/caU=; b=aEzU+QQiyO+d/C5msmDuI178ZOTJym6eHcWcEGm52D2TkuE15w4Favr3Bmo8UNSa+a Q3Ko5g10x7/KSJAU2uh3TiWW6wgJ6FzkZf9WP6HyhxQ5dPpxWVBb0VX5IOJFc2pWrXQK J00fuUHT50dNMcadHz8Y8+TAIKeMPZO8ANyynChAQNU7hz7oK7QMWqAlbJRxO1QZLAkf S+ONIZEwX+pThxzgzf993qF2Vy4ONBhs7hJT6OlB2wivKfWfTSI2jBAlHobrtHvLO4L2 PiGgGfrDzCZ3q+Hbn0aaMxnYc4tx2U/bOgzWNnQhKfFGHr4mh3x2SiRVtS0PM8i2kYW5 N7lg== From: Tibor Raschko References: <20200706191555.GD6176@sirena.org.uk> Message-ID: <44713cf0-db41-bdd0-a41e-d710c346be12@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 02:48:25 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200706191555.GD6176@sirena.org.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [Tech-board-discuss] [PATCH] CodingStyle: Inclusive Terminology List-Id: Public TAB discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , To: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Cc: Greg Kroah-Hartman , torvalds@linux-foundation.org, tech-board-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org, ksummit-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org > More generally etymological arguments are just not super relevant here > anyway, the issues people have are around current perceptions rather > than where things came from. This is where ignoring etymology in this case falls apart, claiming that the current meaning is more important than the historical one. Yes it should be more important, but it suggests that the current meaning is negative, which it is not. In computer science (context!) these words do not have any negative perception or connotation, and people in this field know this. Yes, outsiders might not know this and could misunderstand them. But since when do experts in computer science (or in any field of science for the matter) care if a layman can correctly understand the field's technical terms? We never did and never will, except in this particular case for some odd reason. Be honest: "blacklist" is a technical term where the actual meaning has no negative connotation despite what people outside the field might think. But apparently we don't care about the actual meaning. We also don't care about the historical meaning or etymology. We only care about... well if not about the meaning in the past or present, then I don't know what. Looking good in the media? From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on aws-us-west-2-korg-lkml-1.web.codeaurora.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=3.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,SPF_HELO_NONE,SPF_PASS, USER_AGENT_SANE_1 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 Received: from mail.kernel.org (mail.kernel.org [198.145.29.99]) by smtp.lore.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0B69C433DF for ; Tue, 7 Jul 2020 00:48:30 +0000 (UTC) Received: from vger.kernel.org (vger.kernel.org [23.128.96.18]) by mail.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79FB2206BE for ; Tue, 7 Jul 2020 00:48:30 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: mail.kernel.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b="aEzU+QQi" Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S1727088AbgGGAs3 (ORCPT ); Mon, 6 Jul 2020 20:48:29 -0400 Received: from lindbergh.monkeyblade.net ([23.128.96.19]:38772 "EHLO lindbergh.monkeyblade.net" rhost-flags-OK-OK-OK-OK) by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S1725942AbgGGAs2 (ORCPT ); Mon, 6 Jul 2020 20:48:28 -0400 Received: from mail-wr1-x444.google.com (mail-wr1-x444.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::444]) by lindbergh.monkeyblade.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 86987C061755 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 2020 17:48:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr1-x444.google.com with SMTP id a6so43315234wrm.4 for ; Mon, 06 Jul 2020 17:48:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:subject:to:cc:references:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=PHhv6qtDtZXzF49Da3FQ68J1JWwelrTuXT4MT+d/caU=; b=aEzU+QQiyO+d/C5msmDuI178ZOTJym6eHcWcEGm52D2TkuE15w4Favr3Bmo8UNSa+a Q3Ko5g10x7/KSJAU2uh3TiWW6wgJ6FzkZf9WP6HyhxQ5dPpxWVBb0VX5IOJFc2pWrXQK J00fuUHT50dNMcadHz8Y8+TAIKeMPZO8ANyynChAQNU7hz7oK7QMWqAlbJRxO1QZLAkf S+ONIZEwX+pThxzgzf993qF2Vy4ONBhs7hJT6OlB2wivKfWfTSI2jBAlHobrtHvLO4L2 PiGgGfrDzCZ3q+Hbn0aaMxnYc4tx2U/bOgzWNnQhKfFGHr4mh3x2SiRVtS0PM8i2kYW5 N7lg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:subject:to:cc:references:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=PHhv6qtDtZXzF49Da3FQ68J1JWwelrTuXT4MT+d/caU=; b=Fio/Yt743oulCrjNPGWRbUwK/a2ZHLygki4XR4M/45buIJUeb6Nu4qYew/Y94M6m6y hLh8GlU2PAMU4jcYco1kEezs45yGTvakAWPlDmpjENhQZvksslrYTqzc4Qx2OrTUNTsV Cg2TzgBcTAyKcaKIZvkqrKQu515FvIGizcY4GtR+oD5q1w9eVBeN5cVglFyweAaKstAz VInsMhog9n08EFpuBBB3HT7SIObeAvdnet1cXrdIUII13Sm/KVodrVuwW9TQvk/mN6UT E9TC1CRnx4Q6glYeeNA4tnegy7WNeseRRFOh56m8K0kkJyeaE1xXLqsbD2MoLh0NotB6 uFuA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531Do0lHosG/iy+1OP95koSd/Y3DRvFisanaSQsnrEfUaFNuCTSa bNycztImgtAsGg4BvQPkC4yrzL7R X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwde4GyvWgcYR6EKHS35BJJTV4Sg2r0YwQEk95QDzSvGpZtN7Nu75tw//9+e+6qASAkVU/Iqw== X-Received: by 2002:adf:f707:: with SMTP id r7mr50492428wrp.70.1594082907285; Mon, 06 Jul 2020 17:48:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.50.2] (178-164-237-246.pool.digikabel.hu. [178.164.237.246]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id l18sm26362320wrm.52.2020.07.06.17.48.26 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 06 Jul 2020 17:48:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Tibor Raschko Subject: Re: [Tech-board-discuss] [PATCH] CodingStyle: Inclusive Terminology To: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Cc: torvalds@linux-foundation.org, ksummit-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org, Greg Kroah-Hartman , Mark Brown , tech-board-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org References: <20200706191555.GD6176@sirena.org.uk> Message-ID: <44713cf0-db41-bdd0-a41e-d710c346be12@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 02:48:25 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200706191555.GD6176@sirena.org.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org > More generally etymological arguments are just not super relevant here > anyway, the issues people have are around current perceptions rather > than where things came from. This is where ignoring etymology in this case falls apart, claiming that the current meaning is more important than the historical one. Yes it should be more important, but it suggests that the current meaning is negative, which it is not. In computer science (context!) these words do not have any negative perception or connotation, and people in this field know this. Yes, outsiders might not know this and could misunderstand them. But since when do experts in computer science (or in any field of science for the matter) care if a layman can correctly understand the field's technical terms? We never did and never will, except in this particular case for some odd reason. Be honest: "blacklist" is a technical term where the actual meaning has no negative connotation despite what people outside the field might think. But apparently we don't care about the actual meaning. We also don't care about the historical meaning or etymology. We only care about... well if not about the meaning in the past or present, then I don't know what. Looking good in the media?