From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with archive (Exim 4.43) id 1GuPG7-0005p7-Ch for mharc-grub-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 13 Dec 2006 03:14:35 -0500 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1GuPG4-0005o5-QG for grub-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 13 Dec 2006 03:14:32 -0500 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1GuPG3-0005nn-Ld for grub-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 13 Dec 2006 03:14:32 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1GuPG3-0005nk-IA for grub-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 13 Dec 2006 03:14:31 -0500 Received: from [216.168.96.13] (helo=smtp.nexicom.net) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.52) id 1GuPG3-0001oQ-Bo for grub-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 13 Dec 2006 03:14:31 -0500 Received: from gw.lockie.ca (dyn-dsl-mb-216-168-118-193.nexicom.net [216.168.118.193]) by smtp.nexicom.net (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id kBD8FlW8008525 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2006 03:15:48 -0500 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by gw.lockie.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25F56CF420 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2006 03:14:29 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <457FB665.3050305@lockie.ca> Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 03:14:29 -0500 From: James Lockie User-Agent: Mail/News 1.5.0.8 (X11/20061116) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: The development of GRUB 2 References: <20061204144520.GL3690@schottelius.org> <200612052046.53034.okuji@enbug.org> <1165623424.23364.74.camel@basalt> <200612122346.23678.okuji@enbug.org> In-Reply-To: <200612122346.23678.okuji@enbug.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-6; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: disk vs partition numbering X-BeenThere: grub-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: The development of GRUB 2 List-Id: The development of GRUB 2 List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 08:14:33 -0000 Yoshinori K. Okuji wrote: > On Saturday 09 December 2006 01:17, Hollis Blanchard wrote: > >> On Tue, 2006-12-05 at 20:46 +0100, Yoshinori K. Okuji wrote: >> >>>> Oh, btw, it's HIGHLY confusing that disks start at 0, partitions at >>>> 1. Could you please fix it and make it consequently? either hd1,1 >>>> or hd0,0, but not hd0,1 or hd1,0. >>>> >>> No. It is consistent with most operating systems, so less confusing to >>> the user. GRUB Legacy used 0-based counting for partitions, and I have >>> received an uncountable number of complaints. Thus it is really a bad >>> idea to make GRUB inconsistent against other systems. >>> >> I am very glad partitions are now numbered from one; that will certainly >> reduce user confusion (although we should expect complaints from people >> who know how grub1 works). >> >> However, we will now receive lots of complaints, like this one, because >> disks start at zero but partitions start at one. After all, we've all >> learned that consistency is critical for good user interface... >> > > Agreed. Yes, consistency is extremely important. Unfortunately, there are two > types of consistency in this world: > > - Mathematical or symmetrical consistency > > - Customary or accustomed consistency > > As you know very well, GRUB Legacy follows the former. I decided to change it > to the latter in GRUB 2, as I don't have to care about compatibilities with > GRUB Legacy so much, and I learned that theoretical beauty is often just a > masturbation when coming to the user interfaces with experience. > > There are so many "inconsistencies" in computers. For example, lines are > counted from 1. Columns are counted from 0. AFAIK, all editors and viewers > follow this convention. If one makes it "consistent", probably a lot of > people would feel uncomfortable. > > The critical thing is how to reduce new things that people would have to study > for using a program. GRUB Legacy made a mistake, since nearly all operating > systems use 0-based for disks, and 1-based for partitions. In GRUB Legacy, > compatibilities preceded the learning curve. That is why one chapter is used > only to train people for a new thing in the manual! The same thing is > described more formerly in a later chapter as well. This is the cost in > having inconsistency with other materials. Not about the cost in writing > documentation. It is about the cost in millions of people reading many lines > again and again. > > Now, some people say that this is inconsistent against GRUB Legacy. OK. I > admit it. But which is more important in a long run: easy for existing users > to migrate to GRUB 2, or easy for new comers to adapt GRUB 2? How difficult > is it that existing users know GRUB now follows the same rule as others? How > difficult is it that beginners study a rule different from others, so not > intuitive at all? > > Okuji I like that fact that grub is different. :-) All software should refuse to work unless the manual is read, grub legacy was like that for me. :-) I take that back, software should work without having to read the manual, grub legacy was NOT like that for me. Maybe grub should use the way of designating a disk/partition in the same way as what OS it is running on? Yes, being different for each OS. :-)