From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Alexander Holler Subject: Re: [GIT PULL] omap changes for v2.6.39 merge window Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 20:00:53 +0200 Message-ID: <4D94C155.2090406@ahsoftware.de> References: <20110318101512.GA15375@n2100.arm.linux.org.uk> <201103301906.42429.arnd@arndb.de> <20110331080954.GA14323@n2100.arm.linux.org.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Return-path: In-Reply-To: <20110331080954.GA14323@n2100.arm.linux.org.uk> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: linux-arm-kernel-bounces@lists.infradead.org Errors-To: linux-arm-kernel-bounces+linux-arm-kernel=m.gmane.org@lists.infradead.org To: Russell King - ARM Linux Cc: david@lang.hm, Arnd Bergmann , Nicolas Pitre , Tony Lindgren , Catalin Marinas , lkml , David Brown , linux-omap@vger.kernel.org, Linus Torvalds , linux-arm-kernel@lists.infradead.org List-Id: linux-omap@vger.kernel.org SGVsbG8sCgpBbSAzMS4wMy4yMDExIDEwOjA5LCBzY2hyaWViIFJ1c3NlbGwgS2luZyAtIEFSTSBM aW51eDoKCj4gV2UgYWxzbyBuZWVkIHRoZSB2YXJpb3VzIFNvQyBkZXNpZ25lcnMgYW5kIEFSTSBh cmNoaXRlY3R1cmUgcGVvcGxlIHRvCj4gcmVhbGlzZSB0aGF0IHdoYXQgdGhlIGhhcmR3YXJlIHNp dHVhdGlvbiBpcyByZWRpY3Vsb3VzOyBJIGhhdmUgY29tbWVudGVkCj4gYWJvdXQgdGhpcyBsYWNr IG9mIHN0YW5kYXJkaXNhdGlvbiB0byBBUk0gaW4gcGFzdCB5ZWFycy4gIEFSTSBoYXZlIGhhZAo+ IGEgc3RhbmRhcmQgc2V0IG9mIHBlcmlwaGVyYWxzIGZvciB0ZW4geWVhcnMsIGJ1dCB0aGUgU29D IHBlb3BsZSBoYXZlbid0Cj4gcmVhbGx5IHRha2VuIHRoZW0gdXAgLSBhbmQgd2hlbiB0aGV5IGRv LCB0aGV5IHNlZW0gdG8gYWx3YXlzIGludHJvZHVjZQo+IHRoZWlyIG93biB0d2Vha3MsIHNvbWV0 aW1lcyB3aXRoIG5vIHdheSB0byBkZXRlY3QgdGhvc2UgdHdlYWtzLgoKQXMgYSB1c2VyIG9mIHNl dmVyYWwgQVJNIGJvYXJkcyBJIGZ1bGx5IGFncmVlLiBJJ3ZlIGNvbWUgdG8gdGhlIApjb25jbHVz aW9uIHRoYXQgaWYgZGV2aWNlIHRyZWUgb3Igc29tZXRoaW5nIHNpbWlsaWFyIHdvbid0IGNvbWUg dXAsIAp3aGljaCBvZmZlcnMgYSB2ZW5kb3IgaW5kZXBlbmRlbnQgZGVzY3JpcHRpb24gb2YgdGhl IGhhcmR3YXJlLCB0aGUgQVJNIAptYXJrZXQgKGF0IGxlYXN0IHdpdGggTGludXggYXMgYW4gT1Mp IHdvbid0IGZ1bmN0aW9uLiBJdCdzIGFscmVhZHkgCmFsbW9zdCBpbXBvc3NpYmxlIHRvIHVwZGF0 ZSBhbiBvbGQgdmVuZG9yIGtlcm5lbCB0byBhIG1haW5saW5lIGtlcm5lbCAKdmVyc2lvbiB3aXRo b3V0IGhhdmluZyBzY2hlbWF0aWNzLiBVcCB0byBub3cgdGhpcyBpc24ndCBhIGJpZyBwcm9ibGVt IApiZWNhdXNlIG1vc3QgQVJNLUhXIHBlb3BsZSBhcmUgcGxheWluZyB3aXRoIGFyZSBkZXZlbG9w ZXIgYm9hcmRzLCBidXQgCnRoYXRzIGFscmVhZHkgY2hhbmdpbmcgYW5kIG1vcmUgYW5kIG1vcmUg c3R1ZmYgd2lsbCBjb21lIHdpdGhvdXQgc2NoZW1hdGljcy4KQW5kIHdpdGhvdXQgdGhlIGhlbHAg b2Ygc29tZXRoaW5nIGxpa2UgdGhlIHg4NiBCSU9TIChvciBEVCBmb3IgQVJNKSB5b3UgCmFyZSBq dXN0IGxvc3QgdXNpbmcgYW4gQVJNLUhXIHdoZXJlIHlvdSBkb24ndCBoYXZlIHRoZSBzY2hlbWF0 aWNzLCB3aGVuIAp5b3UgZG9uJ3Qgd2FudCB0byB1c2UgdGhlIHZlbmRvciBwcm92aWRlZCBrZXJu ZWwgc291cmNlcyAoZm9yIHdoaWNoIHlvdSAKYWxtb3N0IG5ldmVyIGdldCBlLmcuIGFueSBzZWN1 cml0eSBmaXhlcykuIEZpbmRpbmcgYWxsIHRoZSBzbWFsbCBrbm9icyAKdG8gdHVybiBvdXQgb2Yg dmVuZG9yIHByb3ZpZGVkIGtlcm5lbCBzb3VyY2VzIGlzIGEgcGFpbiBhbmQganVzdCBhIHdhc3Rl IApvZiB0aW1lIHlvdSBhbG1vc3QgbmV2ZXIgY2FuJ3QgZmluaXNoIGJlZm9yZSB0aGUgSFcgaW4g cXVlc3Rpb24gZ290IApvYnNvbGV0ZS4KCkp1c3QgbXkgMsKiIG9uIHRoYXQgdG9waWMgZnJvbSBh IHNvbWV3aGF0IHVzZXIgcG9pbnQgb2YgdmlldyBmcm9tIG9uZSB3aG8gCmlzbid0IHJlYWxseSBp bnZvbHZlZCB0aGF0IG11Y2ggaW4ga2VybmVsIGRldmVsb3BtZW50LgoKQXQgbGVhc3QgSSBmaW5k IHN1Y2ggYSByYW50IGZyb20gTGludXMgZnJvbSB0aW1lIHRvIHRpbWUgYSBnb29kIHRoaW5nLiAK U29tZXRpbWVzIGl0IGhlbHBzIGlmIHNvbWVvbmUgc3BlYWtzIG91dCBsb3VkIHdoYXRzIHdyb25n LiBBbmQgaWYgTGludXMgCndvdWxkbid0IGJlIHRoYXQgb25lLCB3aG8gZWxzZSB3b3VsZCBiZSBj b3VyYWdlb3VzIGVub3VnaCB0byBkbyB0aGF0PyBJIAp3b3VsZG4ndCAoYW5kIEkgY2FuJ3QsIEkg aGF2ZSB0byB0aGFuayBhbGwga2VybmVsIGRldmVsb3BlcnMgZm9yIHRoZWlyIApoYXJkIHdvcmsp LgoKUmVnYXJkcywKCkFsZXhhbmRlcgoKCl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fCmxpbnV4LWFybS1rZXJuZWwgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0CmxpbnV4LWFybS1r ZXJuZWxAbGlzdHMuaW5mcmFkZWFkLm9yZwpodHRwOi8vbGlzdHMuaW5mcmFkZWFkLm9yZy9tYWls bWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2xpbnV4LWFybS1rZXJuZWwK From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: holler@ahsoftware.de (Alexander Holler) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 20:00:53 +0200 Subject: [GIT PULL] omap changes for v2.6.39 merge window In-Reply-To: <20110331080954.GA14323@n2100.arm.linux.org.uk> References: <20110318101512.GA15375@n2100.arm.linux.org.uk> <201103301906.42429.arnd@arndb.de> <20110331080954.GA14323@n2100.arm.linux.org.uk> Message-ID: <4D94C155.2090406@ahsoftware.de> To: linux-arm-kernel@lists.infradead.org List-Id: linux-arm-kernel.lists.infradead.org Hello, Am 31.03.2011 10:09, schrieb Russell King - ARM Linux: > We also need the various SoC designers and ARM architecture people to > realise that what the hardware situation is rediculous; I have commented > about this lack of standardisation to ARM in past years. ARM have had > a standard set of peripherals for ten years, but the SoC people haven't > really taken them up - and when they do, they seem to always introduce > their own tweaks, sometimes with no way to detect those tweaks. As a user of several ARM boards I fully agree. I've come to the conclusion that if device tree or something similiar won't come up, which offers a vendor independent description of the hardware, the ARM market (at least with Linux as an OS) won't function. It's already almost impossible to update an old vendor kernel to a mainline kernel version without having schematics. Up to now this isn't a big problem because most ARM-HW people are playing with are developer boards, but thats already changing and more and more stuff will come without schematics. And without the help of something like the x86 BIOS (or DT for ARM) you are just lost using an ARM-HW where you don't have the schematics, when you don't want to use the vendor provided kernel sources (for which you almost never get e.g. any security fixes). Finding all the small knobs to turn out of vendor provided kernel sources is a pain and just a waste of time you almost never can't finish before the HW in question got obsolete. Just my 2? on that topic from a somewhat user point of view from one who isn't really involved that much in kernel development. At least I find such a rant from Linus from time to time a good thing. Sometimes it helps if someone speaks out loud whats wrong. And if Linus wouldn't be that one, who else would be courageous enough to do that? I wouldn't (and I can't, I have to thank all kernel developers for their hard work). Regards, Alexander From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S1758900Ab1CaSKS (ORCPT ); Thu, 31 Mar 2011 14:10:18 -0400 Received: from h1446028.stratoserver.net ([85.214.92.142]:34629 "EHLO mail.ahsoftware.de" rhost-flags-OK-OK-OK-OK) by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S1752280Ab1CaSKP convert rfc822-to-8bit (ORCPT ); Thu, 31 Mar 2011 14:10:15 -0400 X-Greylist: delayed 550 seconds by postgrey-1.27 at vger.kernel.org; Thu, 31 Mar 2011 14:10:14 EDT Message-ID: <4D94C155.2090406@ahsoftware.de> Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 20:00:53 +0200 From: Alexander Holler User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux x86_64; en-US; rv:1.9.2.15) Gecko/20110307 Fedora/3.1.9-0.38.b3pre.fc13 Lightning/1.0b3pre Thunderbird/3.1.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Russell King - ARM Linux CC: david@lang.hm, Nicolas Pitre , Linus Torvalds , Arnd Bergmann , Tony Lindgren , David Brown , lkml , linux-arm-kernel@lists.infradead.org, linux-omap@vger.kernel.org, Catalin Marinas Subject: Re: [GIT PULL] omap changes for v2.6.39 merge window References: <20110318101512.GA15375@n2100.arm.linux.org.uk> <201103301906.42429.arnd@arndb.de> <20110331080954.GA14323@n2100.arm.linux.org.uk> In-Reply-To: <20110331080954.GA14323@n2100.arm.linux.org.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org List-ID: X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Hello, Am 31.03.2011 10:09, schrieb Russell King - ARM Linux: > We also need the various SoC designers and ARM architecture people to > realise that what the hardware situation is rediculous; I have commented > about this lack of standardisation to ARM in past years. ARM have had > a standard set of peripherals for ten years, but the SoC people haven't > really taken them up - and when they do, they seem to always introduce > their own tweaks, sometimes with no way to detect those tweaks. As a user of several ARM boards I fully agree. I've come to the conclusion that if device tree or something similiar won't come up, which offers a vendor independent description of the hardware, the ARM market (at least with Linux as an OS) won't function. It's already almost impossible to update an old vendor kernel to a mainline kernel version without having schematics. Up to now this isn't a big problem because most ARM-HW people are playing with are developer boards, but thats already changing and more and more stuff will come without schematics. And without the help of something like the x86 BIOS (or DT for ARM) you are just lost using an ARM-HW where you don't have the schematics, when you don't want to use the vendor provided kernel sources (for which you almost never get e.g. any security fixes). Finding all the small knobs to turn out of vendor provided kernel sources is a pain and just a waste of time you almost never can't finish before the HW in question got obsolete. Just my 2ยข on that topic from a somewhat user point of view from one who isn't really involved that much in kernel development. At least I find such a rant from Linus from time to time a good thing. Sometimes it helps if someone speaks out loud whats wrong. And if Linus wouldn't be that one, who else would be courageous enough to do that? I wouldn't (and I can't, I have to thank all kernel developers for their hard work). Regards, Alexander