Creating Rootfs images without packages

Creating Rootfs images without packages

[mgundes]

   Hi,

   I think one of the big issue with OE is build time. It does everything
for you, so that it takes too much times. I want to minimize build time and
realized that OE creates ipkgs for almost every package. If there is a way
to prevent creation of ipkgs it would be really good for me. In my opinion,
it would be fine for other people too since usually rootfs directory is
enough and ipkgs are not frequently used directly by developers.

   I have asked in freenode oe room but friends said there no way to do that
in OE system. If there is no way to do that in current OE, do you plan to
add as a feature?

   Thanks,

Regards

-- 
MahmutG

Re: Creating Rootfs images without packages

[Gary Thomas]

On 2011-10-12 06:22, mgundes wrote:
>     Hi,
>
>     I think one of the big issue with OE is build time. It does everything
> for you, so that it takes too much times. I want to minimize build time and
> realized that OE creates ipkgs for almost every package. If there is a way

Not true.  Only the packages needed to complete your image will be built.

That said, there are some packages which are built (the first time only) that
comprise the build environment and tool chain which takes a lot of time, but
this is only the first time through.

What image & target are you building for and what packages are built that you
don't think needed to be built?

> to prevent creation of ipkgs it would be really good for me. In my opinion,
> it would be fine for other people too since usually rootfs directory is
> enough and ipkgs are not frequently used directly by developers.
>
>     I have asked in freenode oe room but friends said there no way to do that
> in OE system. If there is no way to do that in current OE, do you plan to
> add as a feature?
>
>     Thanks,
>
> Regards
>

-- 
------------------------------------------------------------
Gary Thomas                 |  Consulting for the
MLB Associates              |    Embedded world
------------------------------------------------------------

Re: Creating Rootfs images without packages

[mgundes]

On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 3:34 PM, Gary Thomas <gary@mlbassoc.com> wrote:

> On 2011-10-12 06:22, mgundes wrote:
>
>>    Hi,
>>
>>    I think one of the big issue with OE is build time. It does everything
>> for you, so that it takes too much times. I want to minimize build time
>> and
>> realized that OE creates ipkgs for almost every package. If there is a way
>>
>
> Not true.  Only the packages needed to complete your image will be built.
>
> That said, there are some packages which are built (the first time only)
> that
> comprise the build environment and tool chain which takes a lot of time,
> but
> this is only the first time through.
>

What image & target are you building for and what packages are built that
> you
> don't think needed to be built?
>
>
>
     In my tmp/work directroy there are 868 ipk packages which was created
by OE:

$ find -iname *.ipk | wc -l
868

     I use arm based pc7302 chipset and vendor supplied machine and distro
configuration. I use standard filesystem with packages like below in my
rootfs image.

IMAGE_INSTALL +=
"base-files base-files-doc  base-passwd  busybox  bash  mtd-utils
dropbear  ethtool  firmwareupdate  strace  oprofile  kernel-modules
memview
\

  modutils-initscripts modutils pareadback picomon2 picoifapp picofuse ubootenv"

     Of course every needed packages should be built and located into rootfs
filesystem directory.

     "ipk" and "deb" files are used to install target system, right? I mean
If I don't need ipkgs as a developer, it would be nice if there is a way to
prevent ipkg creation steps. As far as I know, OE creates ipk from built
package's files and then use created ipks to create rootfs directory; then
creates image from rootfs directory. I am asking that what about directly
creating a rootfs directory and install built package files to rootfs after
compilation in install tasks. By this way there is no need to create ipkgs?
Am I right?


>  to prevent creation of ipkgs it would be really good for me. In my
>> opinion,
>> it would be fine for other people too since usually rootfs directory is
>> enough and ipkgs are not frequently used directly by developers.
>>
>>    I have asked in freenode oe room but friends said there no way to do
>> that
>> in OE system. If there is no way to do that in current OE, do you plan to
>> add as a feature?
>>
>>    Thanks,
>>
>> Regards
>>
>>
> --
> ------------------------------**------------------------------
> Gary Thomas                 |  Consulting for the
> MLB Associates              |    Embedded world
> ------------------------------**------------------------------
>
>

Thanks,
Regards,
-- 
MahmutG

Re: Creating Rootfs images without packages

[Gary Thomas]

On 2011-10-12 07:10, mgundes wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 3:34 PM, Gary Thomas <gary@mlbassoc.com <mailto:gary@mlbassoc.com>> wrote:
>
>     On 2011-10-12 06:22, mgundes wrote:
>
>             Hi,
>
>             I think one of the big issue with OE is build time. It does everything
>         for you, so that it takes too much times. I want to minimize build time and
>         realized that OE creates ipkgs for almost every package. If there is a way
>
>
>     Not true.  Only the packages needed to complete your image will be built.
>
>     That said, there are some packages which are built (the first time only) that
>     comprise the build environment and tool chain which takes a lot of time, but
>     this is only the first time through.
>
>     What image & target are you building for and what packages are built that you
>     don't think needed to be built?
>
>
>
>       In my tmp/work directroy there are 868 ipk packages which was created by OE:
>
> $ find -iname *.ipk | wc -l
> 868

You'll find nearly 1/2 of those are support packages, e.g. XXX-dbg or XXX-dev, which are only
used for development or debugging and not normally installed on your image.

>
>       I use arm based pc7302 chipset and vendor supplied machine and distro configuration. I use standard filesystem with packages like below in my rootfs image.
>
> IMAGE_INSTALL += "base-files base-files-doc  base-passwd  busybox  bash  mtd-utils  dropbear  ethtool  firmwareupdate  strace  oprofile  kernel-modules  memview \
>                                  modutils-initscripts modutils pareadback picomon2 picoifapp picofuse ubootenv"
>
>       Of course every needed packages should be built and located into rootfs filesystem directory.
>
> "ipk" and "deb" files are used to install target system, right? I mean If I don't need ipkgs as a developer, it would be nice if there is a way to prevent ipkg creation steps. As
> far as I know, OE creates ipk from built package's files and then use created ipks to create rootfs directory; then creates image from rootfs directory. I am asking that what about
> directly creating a rootfs directory and install built package files to rootfs after compilation in install tasks. By this way there is no need to create ipkgs? Am I right?

That's not the OE philosophy.  Using ipkg (or rpm) is a way of keeping the relevant files
in a convenient, reusable, container.  These containers are then used to build the image.
By having reusable containers, you can [re]use the same set to build multiple different images
without having to rebuild the component pieces.  Also, the working directories used to
build the packages can be purged after the package containers have been created.

>
>         to prevent creation of ipkgs it would be really good for me. In my opinion,
>         it would be fine for other people too since usually rootfs directory is
>         enough and ipkgs are not frequently used directly by developers.
>
>             I have asked in freenode oe room but friends said there no way to do that
>         in OE system. If there is no way to do that in current OE, do you plan to
>         add as a feature?


-- 
------------------------------------------------------------
Gary Thomas                 |  Consulting for the
MLB Associates              |    Embedded world
------------------------------------------------------------

Re: Creating Rootfs images without packages

[mgundes]

On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 4:21 PM, Gary Thomas <gary@mlbassoc.com> wrote:

> On 2011-10-12 07:10, mgundes wrote:
>
>
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 3:34 PM, Gary Thomas <gary@mlbassoc.com <mailto:
>> gary@mlbassoc.com>> wrote:
>>
>>    On 2011-10-12 06:22, mgundes wrote:
>>
>>            Hi,
>>
>>            I think one of the big issue with OE is build time. It does
>> everything
>>        for you, so that it takes too much times. I want to minimize build
>> time and
>>        realized that OE creates ipkgs for almost every package. If there
>> is a way
>>
>>
>>    Not true.  Only the packages needed to complete your image will be
>> built.
>>
>>    That said, there are some packages which are built (the first time
>> only) that
>>    comprise the build environment and tool chain which takes a lot of
>> time, but
>>    this is only the first time through.
>>
>>    What image & target are you building for and what packages are built
>> that you
>>    don't think needed to be built?
>>
>>
>>
>>      In my tmp/work directroy there are 868 ipk packages which was created
>> by OE:
>>
>> $ find -iname *.ipk | wc -l
>> 868
>>
>
> You'll find nearly 1/2 of those are support packages, e.g. XXX-dbg or
> XXX-dev, which are only
> used for development or debugging and not normally installed on your image.
>
>
>
>>      I use arm based pc7302 chipset and vendor supplied machine and distro
>> configuration. I use standard filesystem with packages like below in my
>> rootfs image.
>>
>> IMAGE_INSTALL += "base-files base-files-doc  base-passwd  busybox  bash
>>  mtd-utils  dropbear  ethtool  firmwareupdate  strace  oprofile
>>  kernel-modules  memview \
>>                                 modutils-initscripts modutils pareadback
>> picomon2 picoifapp picofuse ubootenv"
>>
>>      Of course every needed packages should be built and located into
>> rootfs filesystem directory.
>>
>> "ipk" and "deb" files are used to install target system, right? I mean If
>> I don't need ipkgs as a developer, it would be nice if there is a way to
>> prevent ipkg creation steps. As
>> far as I know, OE creates ipk from built package's files and then use
>> created ipks to create rootfs directory; then creates image from rootfs
>> directory. I am asking that what about
>> directly creating a rootfs directory and install built package files to
>> rootfs after compilation in install tasks. By this way there is no need to
>> create ipkgs? Am I right?
>>
>
> That's not the OE philosophy.  Using ipkg (or rpm) is a way of keeping the
> relevant files
> in a convenient, reusable, container.  These containers are then used to
> build the image.
> By having reusable containers, you can [re]use the same set to build
> multiple different images
> without having to rebuild the component pieces.  Also, the working
> directories used to
> build the packages can be purged after the package containers have been
> created.
>
>
>
      That's good if you build more than one types of images and this is why
not good for me because I use OE for just one type of image. At that point,
you are right. However I think OE developers can consider this issue since
there may be many people use OE for just one type of image.


>
>>        to prevent creation of ipkgs it would be really good for me. In my
>> opinion,
>>        it would be fine for other people too since usually rootfs
>> directory is
>>        enough and ipkgs are not frequently used directly by developers.
>>
>>            I have asked in freenode oe room but friends said there no way
>> to do that
>>        in OE system. If there is no way to do that in current OE, do you
>> plan to
>>        add as a feature?
>>
>
>
> --
> ------------------------------**------------------------------
> Gary Thomas                 |  Consulting for the
> MLB Associates              |    Embedded world
> ------------------------------**------------------------------
>
>
Thanks,
Regards,

-- 
MahmutG

Re: Creating Rootfs images without packages

[Chris Larson]

On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 5:34 AM, Gary Thomas <gary@mlbassoc.com> wrote:
> On 2011-10-12 06:22, mgundes wrote:
>>
>>    Hi,
>>
>>    I think one of the big issue with OE is build time. It does everything
>> for you, so that it takes too much times. I want to minimize build time
>> and
>> realized that OE creates ipkgs for almost every package. If there is a way
>
> Not true.  Only the packages needed to complete your image will be built.

This isn't the case, of course. Only the *recipes* needed to complete
your image will be built, but all of the packages for those recipes
are constructed, whether they'll eventually be used or not. Of course,
not saying that's a problem, just clarifying for mgundes.
-- 
Christopher Larson
clarson at kergoth dot com
Founder - BitBake, OpenEmbedded, OpenZaurus
Maintainer - Tslib
Senior Software Engineer, Mentor Graphics

Re: Creating Rootfs images without packages

[dashesy]

On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 6:22 AM, mgundes <mgcse@hotmail.com> wrote:
>   Hi,
>
>   I think one of the big issue with OE is build time. It does everything
> for you, so that it takes too much times. I want to minimize build time and
> realized that OE creates ipkgs for almost every package. If there is a way
> to prevent creation of ipkgs it would be really good for me. In my opinion,
> it would be fine for other people too since usually rootfs directory is
> enough and ipkgs are not frequently used directly by developers.
>
Just as a suggestion:
1- You can start with a bare minimum rootfs then run it under qemu, or
even on the board itself
    Then you can use opkg to download/upgrade from the repositories,
or remove what you do not need. I guess this is the fastest method.
    I am thinking of putting together a build environment based on
user-mode qemu and opkg.
    I use fedora's kickstart files to build my desktop rootfs. That
would be great to have a similar approach using qemu and opkg.
    Specially for most people they do not need to compile the packages
themselves and the repositories are enough, they only need to compile
a few packages of their own.
2- You can only bitbake meta-toolchain to get a gcc with cross
compilation capability, then use that to build any package that you
want directly from sources without relying on OE.
    This is what I do myself right now, but you need to make sure the
dependencies are met.

If the dependencies of packages are correct and to the bare minimum
required (which should becase or it should be filed as a bug), OE will
be a better approach, it takes care of dependencies for you.
The only problem I have is that OE is hugely customizable, and takes
time to learn all different tricks to get exactly what I want in my
rootfs.
I am learning OE, for me I try to follow the mailing lists to learn
non-out-dated information as the first thing I learned was to that
most wikis are way outdated :)

For example, is there a way not to compile any -dbg packages?
I intuitively guess I need to set "release" in my local.conf but there
is no easier way than trying it and check if -dbg packages are created
or not.

>   I have asked in freenode oe room but friends said there no way to do that
> in OE system. If there is no way to do that in current OE, do you plan to
> add as a feature?
>
>   Thanks,
>
> Regards
>
> --
> MahmutG
> _______________________________________________
> Openembedded-devel mailing list
> Openembedded-devel@lists.openembedded.org
> http://lists.linuxtogo.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openembedded-devel
>

dashesy

Re: Creating Rootfs images without packages

[Khem Raj]

On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 1:46 PM, dashesy <dashesy@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 6:22 AM, mgundes <mgcse@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>   Hi,
>>
>>   I think one of the big issue with OE is build time. It does everything
>> for you, so that it takes too much times. I want to minimize build time and
>> realized that OE creates ipkgs for almost every package. If there is a way
>> to prevent creation of ipkgs it would be really good for me. In my opinion,
>> it would be fine for other people too since usually rootfs directory is
>> enough and ipkgs are not frequently used directly by developers.
>>
> Just as a suggestion:
> 1- You can start with a bare minimum rootfs then run it under qemu, or
> even on the board itself
>    Then you can use opkg to download/upgrade from the repositories,
> or remove what you do not need. I guess this is the fastest method.
>    I am thinking of putting together a build environment based on
> user-mode qemu and opkg.
>    I use fedora's kickstart files to build my desktop rootfs. That
> would be great to have a similar approach using qemu and opkg.

have look at aboriginal linux before you start.
http://landley.net/aboriginal/

>    Specially for most people they do not need to compile the packages
> themselves and the repositories are enough, they only need to compile
> a few packages of their own.
> 2- You can only bitbake meta-toolchain to get a gcc with cross
> compilation capability, then use that to build any package that you
> want directly from sources without relying on OE.
>    This is what I do myself right now, but you need to make sure the
> dependencies are met.
>
> If the dependencies of packages are correct and to the bare minimum
> required (which should becase or it should be filed as a bug), OE will
> be a better approach, it takes care of dependencies for you.
> The only problem I have is that OE is hugely customizable, and takes
> time to learn all different tricks to get exactly what I want in my
> rootfs.
> I am learning OE, for me I try to follow the mailing lists to learn
> non-out-dated information as the first thing I learned was to that
> most wikis are way outdated :)
>
> For example, is there a way not to compile any -dbg packages?
> I intuitively guess I need to set "release" in my local.conf but there
> is no easier way than trying it and check if -dbg packages are created
> or not.
>
>>   I have asked in freenode oe room but friends said there no way to do that
>> in OE system. If there is no way to do that in current OE, do you plan to
>> add as a feature?
>>
>>   Thanks,
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> --
>> MahmutG
>> _______________________________________________
>> Openembedded-devel mailing list
>> Openembedded-devel@lists.openembedded.org
>> http://lists.linuxtogo.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openembedded-devel
>>
>
> dashesy
>
> _______________________________________________
> Openembedded-devel mailing list
> Openembedded-devel@lists.openembedded.org
> http://lists.linuxtogo.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openembedded-devel
>

Re: Creating Rootfs images without packages

[Ulf Samuelsson]

On 2011-10-12 14:22, mgundes wrote:
>     Hi,
>
>     I think one of the big issue with OE is build time. It does everything
> for you, so that it takes too much times. I want to minimize build time and
> realized that OE creates ipkgs for almost every package. If there is a way
> to prevent creation of ipkgs it would be really good for me. In my opinion,
> it would be fine for other people too since usually rootfs directory is
> enough and ipkgs are not frequently used directly by developers.
>
>     I have asked in freenode oe room but friends said there no way to do that
> in OE system. If there is no way to do that in current OE, do you plan to
> add as a feature?
>
>     Thanks,
>
> Regards
>

Question: What do youj mean by long build time.
                 Building everything takes 1.5-2 hours.
                 Doing an incremental build is much less.

When I started, my laptop would take 42 hours to complete the build
(Calculated, I gave up way before), but then I got a decent machine.
If you consider 1.5 hours for the first build long, then you still have 
a problem

-- 
Best Regards
Ulf Samuelsson

Re: Creating Rootfs images without packages

[mgundes]

On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 3:37 AM, Ulf Samuelsson <ulf_samuelsson@telia.com>wrote:

> On 2011-10-12 14:22, mgundes wrote:
>
>>    Hi,
>>
>>    I think one of the big issue with OE is build time. It does everything
>> for you, so that it takes too much times. I want to minimize build time
>> and
>> realized that OE creates ipkgs for almost every package. If there is a way
>> to prevent creation of ipkgs it would be really good for me. In my
>> opinion,
>> it would be fine for other people too since usually rootfs directory is
>> enough and ipkgs are not frequently used directly by developers.
>>
>>    I have asked in freenode oe room but friends said there no way to do
>> that
>> in OE system. If there is no way to do that in current OE, do you plan to
>> add as a feature?
>>
>>    Thanks,
>>
>> Regards
>>
>>
> Question: What do youj mean by long build time.
>                Building everything takes 1.5-2 hours.
>                Doing an incremental build is much less.
>
> When I started, my laptop would take 42 hours to complete the build
> (Calculated, I gave up way before), but then I got a decent machine.
> If you consider 1.5 hours for the first build long, then you still have a
> problem
>
>
     If you can make it 30 minutes shorter, why wouldn't you try, it worths
I think. I wondered and asked what can I do about it, that's it.


> --
> Best Regards
> Ulf Samuelsson
>
>
>
> ______________________________**_________________
> Openembedded-devel mailing list
> Openembedded-devel@lists.**openembedded.org<Openembedded-devel@lists.openembedded.org>
> http://lists.linuxtogo.org/**cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/**openembedded-devel<http://lists.linuxtogo.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openembedded-devel>
>
>


-- 
MahmutG

Re: Creating Rootfs images without packages

[mgundes]

On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 11:46 PM, dashesy <dashesy@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 6:22 AM, mgundes <mgcse@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >   Hi,
> >
> >   I think one of the big issue with OE is build time. It does everything
> > for you, so that it takes too much times. I want to minimize build time
> and
> > realized that OE creates ipkgs for almost every package. If there is a
> way
> > to prevent creation of ipkgs it would be really good for me. In my
> opinion,
> > it would be fine for other people too since usually rootfs directory is
> > enough and ipkgs are not frequently used directly by developers.
> >
> Just as a suggestion:
> 1- You can start with a bare minimum rootfs then run it under qemu, or
> even on the board itself
>    Then you can use opkg to download/upgrade from the repositories,
> or remove what you do not need. I guess this is the fastest method.
>    I am thinking of putting together a build environment based on
> user-mode qemu and opkg.
>    I use fedora's kickstart files to build my desktop rootfs. That
> would be great to have a similar approach using qemu and opkg.
>    Specially for most people they do not need to compile the packages
> themselves and the repositories are enough, they only need to compile
> a few packages of their own.
> 2- You can only bitbake meta-toolchain to get a gcc with cross
> compilation capability, then use that to build any package that you
> want directly from sources without relying on OE.
>    This is what I do myself right now, but you need to make sure the
> dependencies are met.
>
> If the dependencies of packages are correct and to the bare minimum
> required (which should becase or it should be filed as a bug), OE will
> be a better approach, it takes care of dependencies for you.
> The only problem I have is that OE is hugely customizable, and takes
> time to learn all different tricks to get exactly what I want in my
> rootfs.
> I am learning OE, for me I try to follow the mailing lists to learn
> non-out-dated information as the first thing I learned was to that
> most wikis are way outdated :)
>
> For example, is there a way not to compile any -dbg packages?
> I intuitively guess I need to set "release" in my local.conf but there
> is no easier way than trying it and check if -dbg packages are created
> or not.
>

    Thanks for suggestions dashesy, I am going to try to use external
toolchain first. I think this will reduce much time if I achieve.


>
> >   I have asked in freenode oe room but friends said there no way to do
> that
> > in OE system. If there is no way to do that in current OE, do you plan to
> > add as a feature?
> >
> >   Thanks,
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > --
> > MahmutG
> > _______________________________________________
> > Openembedded-devel mailing list
> > Openembedded-devel@lists.openembedded.org
> > http://lists.linuxtogo.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openembedded-devel
> >
>
> dashesy
>
> _______________________________________________
> Openembedded-devel mailing list
> Openembedded-devel@lists.openembedded.org
> http://lists.linuxtogo.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openembedded-devel
>
>


-- 
MahmutG

Re: Creating Rootfs images without packages

[Phil Blundell]

On Wed, 2011-10-12 at 15:22 +0300, mgundes wrote:
>    I think one of the big issue with OE is build time. It does everything
> for you, so that it takes too much times. I want to minimize build time and
> realized that OE creates ipkgs for almost every package. If there is a way
> to prevent creation of ipkgs it would be really good for me. In my opinion,
> it would be fine for other people too since usually rootfs directory is
> enough and ipkgs are not frequently used directly by developers.

If you want to eliminate ipk specifically then there is no problem: you
can select package_rpm or package_tar or package_deb instead.

If you want to eliminate the whole packaging step then this is rather
more tricky and it's not really obvious that this would buy much.  Do
you have a proposal for how rootfs construction could be done in that
case?

p.

Re: Creating Rootfs images without packages

[mgundes]

On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 12:26 PM, Phil Blundell <philb@gnu.org> wrote:

> On Wed, 2011-10-12 at 15:22 +0300, mgundes wrote:
> >    I think one of the big issue with OE is build time. It does everything
> > for you, so that it takes too much times. I want to minimize build time
> and
> > realized that OE creates ipkgs for almost every package. If there is a
> way
> > to prevent creation of ipkgs it would be really good for me. In my
> opinion,
> > it would be fine for other people too since usually rootfs directory is
> > enough and ipkgs are not frequently used directly by developers.
>
> If you want to eliminate ipk specifically then there is no problem: you
> can select package_rpm or package_tar or package_deb instead.
>
> If you want to eliminate the whole packaging step then this is rather
> more tricky and it's not really obvious that this would buy much.  Do
> you have a proposal for how rootfs construction could be done in that
> case?
>
> p.
>
>
>
      Hi Phil,

      I meant eliminating whole packages.

      Sometimes you think that it should be a better way even if you don't
know the way. I am not expert on OE and unfortunately I don't have any
proposal. I thought there may be or there should be a way to do but if
founders and experts don't agree or say current is the best way to go, then
everything is ok. May be later, when I learn OE good enough and if I figure
out a way I surely share with OE team :)


>
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-- 
MahmutG

Re: Creating Rootfs images without packages

[Khem Raj]

On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 4:07 AM, mgundes <mgcse@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>      I meant eliminating whole packages.

look at linux from scratch that might be good starting point for such a thing.

>
>      Sometimes you think that it should be a better way even if you don't
> know the way. I am not expert on OE and unfortunately I don't have any
> proposal. I thought there may be or there should be a way to do but if
> founders and experts don't agree or say current is the best way to go, then
> everything is ok. May be later, when I learn OE good enough and if I figure
> out a way I surely share with OE team :)


>