Re: [Xen-users] xen forum

[George Dunlap <george.dunlap@eu.citrix.com>]

On 22/05/13 16:24, Gordan Bobic wrote:
> On Wed, 22 May 2013 11:20:49 +0100, George Dunlap 
> <George.Dunlap@eu.citrix.com> wrote:
>
>>>>>>>> I believe both mailing lists are great but there are so may 
>>>>>>>> postings
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> many issues get missed. There are some bugs that hand never been
>>>>>>>> resolved
>>>>>>>> because developers are unaware of it. I just setup forum for xen
>>>>>>>> users at
>>>>>>>> sam.hebe.us/forums please be free to join
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It would be easier for us if the bug reports and such were 
>>>>>>> posted on
>>>>>>> xen-devel.
>>>>>>> Please consult 
>>>>>>> http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/bugs.html
>>>>>>> when
>>>>>>> doing it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   Surely a bug-tracking system that emails all reports to xen-devel
>>>>>>   automatically would cover the best of both worlds, would it not?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Not unless developers can reply to the bug by hitting reply in their
>>>>> MUA.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Please drop the forum idea. Xen should use a proper bug tracking
>>>> system like Bugzilla (which allows replying to bugs by clicking
>>>> "Reply" in MUA).
>>>> Take a look at: 
>>>> http://www.bugzilla.org/docs/4.0/en/html/api/email_in.html
>>>
>>>
>>> +1
>>>
>>> Along with a wiki for documentation that is actually kept updated when
>>> features are added/removed/changed and more importantly, that 
>>> clearly states
>>> if/when obvious features are unexpectedly and conspicuously missing 
>>> (e.g.
>>> domU config file method of passing multiple USB devices to domU).
>>
>> So the thing here is that I don't think any of the active developers
>> knew there was that limitation.  As soon as I discovered it, I just
>> fixed it (which is why 4.3 will have support for passing multiple USB
>> devices in the config file).
>>
>> If you find other obvious missing features like that, please mention
>> them on the list, and/or suggest them in the xen.org uservoice page:
>>  http://xenorg.uservoice.com
>
> Somebody mentioned it before. Here's a thread from 2009:
> http://lists.xen.org/archives/html/xen-users/2009-10/msg00010.html
>
> I think you are further strengthening the case for the list being
> too leaky as a method of reporting things like this.

The question isn't about it being leaky, the question is attracting the 
attention of someone who can do something about it.  If someone had 
posted this on our bugzilla four years ago, it would also still be there 
today -- unless someone had actively looked through the list and brought 
it to someone's attention.  That e-mail was on the xen-users mailing 
list -- not the best place unfortunately for getting the attention of 
developers.  If no one did that for xen-users, why do you think they 
would do it for a bugzilla?

What full-time developers typically do is to go through the xen-devel 
mailing list every day looking for e-mails that are relevant to them.  
When they find a bug report they think pertains to them, they put it on 
their personal list and ask more questions about it to determine if it 
really is a bug, and if it really has to do with something in their own 
area or in someone else's.  When they determine that it is a bug and is 
in their area, they put it on their list of things to fix, and get to it 
when it fits with their current priorities.

The key process in this step is "detecting signal in the noise" -- 
finding what's relevant in what's not relevant.  On a mailing list, the 
"signal to noise" ratio is a function of how many messages there are and 
what percentage of them pertain to you; as Xen grows as as project, that 
ratio is lower, and so mail is sometimes dropped.

But the problem isn't actually better on a bugzilla.  If I'm scanning 
through bugs, I still need to find out which bugs are relevant to me.  
The "signal to noise" ratio in this case, however, is the number of open 
bugs -- which will grow linearly with time, as opposed to being a 
constant based on the size of the project.

What bugzilla is *worse* for is discussing what the problem is and 
coming up with a solution.  Mail is much more suited for that purpose.

What we need is people who report / complain about bugs / deficiences in 
a constructive way.  Ideally the reporter would keep "Keep bugging the 
list every so often until I'm told 'No'" on their own to-do list.  It 
would also be great if we had more experienced users helping to make bug 
reports better, and then helping bring bug reports / deficiencies to the 
attention of appropriate maintainers and developers.  Pasi I know has 
played this role, but it wouldn't hurt to have more people get an idea 
who might be the best person to talk to about a particular issue.

  -George