Re: [Xenomai] RTDM syscalls & switching

[Jan Kiszka <jan.kiszka@siemens.com>]

On 2016-05-12 20:35, Philippe Gerum wrote:
> On 05/12/2016 08:24 PM, Jan Kiszka wrote:
>> On 2016-05-12 20:20, Gilles Chanteperdrix wrote:
>>> On Thu, May 12, 2016 at 07:17:15PM +0200, Jan Kiszka wrote:
>>>> On 2016-05-12 19:12, Gilles Chanteperdrix wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, May 12, 2016 at 06:59:04PM +0200, Gilles Chanteperdrix wrote:
>>>>>> On Thu, May 12, 2016 at 06:50:03PM +0200, Jan Kiszka wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2016-05-12 18:31, Gilles Chanteperdrix wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Thu, May 12, 2016 at 06:06:16PM +0200, Jan Kiszka wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Gilles,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> regarding commit bec5d0dd42 (rtdm: make syscalls conforming rather than
>>>>>>>>> current) - I remember a discussion on that topic, but I do not find its
>>>>>>>>> traces any more. Do you have a pointer
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In any case, I'm confronted with a use case for the old (Xenomai 2),
>>>>>>>>> lazy switching behaviour: lightweight, performance sensitive IOCTL
>>>>>>>>> services that can (and should) be called without any switching from both
>>>>>>>>> domains.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Why not using a plain linux driver? ioctl_nrt callbacks are
>>>>>>>> redundant with plain linux drivers.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Because that enforces the calling layer to either call the same service
>>>>>>> via a plain Linux device if the calling thread is currently relaxed or
>>>>>>> go for the RT device if the caller is in primary. Doable, but I would
>>>>>>> really like to avoid this pain for the users.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What were the arguments in favour of migrating threads to real-time first?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I currently see the real need only for IOCTLs, but the question is then
>>>>>>>>> if we shouldn't go back to "__xn_exec_current" in all RTDM cases to
>>>>>>>>> avoid unwanted migration costs (which are significantly higher than
>>>>>>>>> syscall restarts).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I do not find commit bec5d0dd42 in xenomai-2.6 git tree, and I do
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Xenomai 2 is still following the lazy scheme - we reverted that commit
>>>>>>> later on in 7df0c1d96b. Xenomai 3 changed it again with the commit above.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> not remember merging this. However I find commit
>>>>>>>> 13bfdd477ab880499d2e8f3b82c49ef4d2cccff0 from 2010 which seems to
>>>>>>>> explain the reason pretty clear.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> At the time of the discussion we had concluded that it was the way
>>>>>>>> to go. With __xn_exec_current you may enter the ioctl_rt callback
>>>>>>>> from secondary domain, which is counter-intuitive, error-prone, and
>>>>>>>> forces you to cripple driver code for checks for the current domain.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Nope, normal drivers are not affected as they just implement those
>>>>>>> services in the respective mode they want to support there and have a
>>>>>>> simple -ENOSYS for the rest (explicitly in IOCTLs or implicitly by
>>>>>>> leaving out the implementation of the counterpart handler).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, I got mixed up trying to remember. I think the crux of the
>>>>>> problem is that if a thread running in primary mode gets
>>>>>> (temporarily) switched to secondary mode by gdb, the ioctl_nrt
>>>>>> handler gets invoked, which is almost certainly the wrong thing to
>>>>>> do. You want the thread to migrate to primary mode to execute
>>>>>> ioctl_rt, which __xn_exec_conforming achieves. Otherwise running an
>>>>>> application in gdb causes the application to behave differently.
>>>>>
>>>>> And trying and avoiding this issue indeed cripple codes with checks
>>>>> for rtdm_in_rt_context:
>>>>> https://git.xenomai.org/xenomai-2.6.git/tree/ksrc/drivers/analogy/rtdm_interface.c#n194
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I don't remember details here, but this is a special case: The driver
>>>> provides also read_nrt - is that really useful for Analogy?
>>>>
>>>> In most cases, you are fine with not providing the nrt (or rt) handler,
>>>> or with a simple
>>>>
>>>> default:
>>>> 	return -ENOSYS;
>>>>
>>>> in your ioctl dispatcher.
>>>
>>> You are missing the point: if you enter read_nrt, there are two
>>> cases:
>>> - either the thread is real-time capable and has been relaxed by gdb
>>> and you want to switch to read_rt for the reasons I already
>>> explained, in that case, you must return -ENOSYS;
>>> - or the thread is not real-time capable and the nrt handler
>>> applies.
>>>
>>> So, you need at least
>>>
>>> read_nrt()
>>> {
>>> 	if (rt_capable)
>>> 	     return -ENOSYS;
>>>
>>> 	/* Do the normal case here */
>>> }
>>
>> Now tell me how many drivers have read_nrt, write_nrt? 1 in-tree.
>> recvmsg_nrt, sendmsg_nrt? 0 in-tree. Analogy is special (still like to
>> understand why, though). And having some special code in the exceptional
>> case is probably better then the side effects we get from eagerly
>> switching now.
>>
> 
> Sorry, that is exactly the opposite: your use case is exceptional and I
> believe is wrong. The normal use case is the one that does not ask the
> user to track the current mode for knowing what any random driver would
> eventually do depending on the calling context.

You still miss the point that this is not required in 99% of the cases.
There is no such problem. There only Analogy.

Every driver must ensure that a service is only exposed to users in the
right mode. That is a functional requirement, and drivers that fail to
do so only work by chance (thus with the restricted workload they are
tested against). If that is fulfilled, it doesn't matter to the driver
when the switch happens. It's pure optimization.

> 
> I'm not opposed to finding a way to cover your use case too if possible,
> but certainly not at the expense of reintroducing a broken and
> error-prone logic in the core for everyone.

Then explain to me how to fix the needless migration overhead when
calling regular Linux drivers - There are multiple issues and
limitations with conforming.

Jan

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