From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on aws-us-west-2-korg-lkml-1.web.codeaurora.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.5 required=3.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID,DKIM_VALID_AU,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,INCLUDES_CR_TRAILER,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, NICE_REPLY_A,SPF_HELO_NONE,SPF_PASS,URIBL_BLOCKED,USER_AGENT_SANE_1 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 Received: from mail.kernel.org (mail.kernel.org [198.145.29.99]) by smtp.lore.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00B4AC433E9 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 2021 13:35:24 +0000 (UTC) Received: from vger.kernel.org (vger.kernel.org [23.128.96.18]) by mail.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCE5B239FF for ; Fri, 8 Jan 2021 13:35:23 +0000 (UTC) Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S1727511AbhAHNfQ (ORCPT ); Fri, 8 Jan 2021 08:35:16 -0500 Received: from lindbergh.monkeyblade.net ([23.128.96.19]:46260 "EHLO lindbergh.monkeyblade.net" rhost-flags-OK-OK-OK-OK) by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S1726220AbhAHNfQ (ORCPT ); Fri, 8 Jan 2021 08:35:16 -0500 Received: from mail-wr1-x436.google.com (mail-wr1-x436.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::436]) by lindbergh.monkeyblade.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F2B0CC0612F4 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 2021 05:34:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wr1-x436.google.com with SMTP id w5so8995546wrm.11 for ; Fri, 08 Jan 2021 05:34:47 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=3bLTl/68+4wmWTYAbiXyV2cUtyy9a/6kUuYwhk61lh8=; b=a02R9RkUx9bDbOqMLQfOiRg/riSrMZKN530dulqHg5OiwG90MzBHHY7SXWSIaZrNmV bOJ2othX3RNlp6Tuoa2yc+WH6KYY+vyzP8vaMgFqiNWA789Lcdx/SkOyF1cZ01/bUbu1 48HsgYpRTLz2kWVwhIvmDZ0+chKbcrwhvggwEhh6sS/wn31NK+eNoL+0G8oFGZ/PynMY N+NRZK0SVwkQ56UZsmrTQGsYG1JpNhuWTnm8AmfdHhudFe/BVlTE+UQmSHv7A336sBrK 8i4XsBk55XqRukVrkJsziLuNHEi3g17OPkEP5rGrHCWYe38Ga1uXeSAViwi9KszhaRDN j14w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=3bLTl/68+4wmWTYAbiXyV2cUtyy9a/6kUuYwhk61lh8=; b=TowHqPy7RCNPpRa9ApZlgpVw2KRY3pAOvND4k6YVVj69pO8BPKXjSI3VhXV9sDp1sn hsY7DwDZw2WXOEeNrx4JjcdECAjww1F8L9gAN0gvuL43FVs+Y+mZfmIK7HKdqZ80BYj9 5/ST2QnVZ1Tn5KqtedM/mzMXd0bKGVZ+EQYc+A/XtObFq7LHDniHs3rT2LyMJLAtqVYr F/+1owOWHBha2lGfLJvdAVFUM2eNSxLo7nmWfAYf+nQDWn5+w4wyV6kW2RY7D1vZWPae 13q/mXyvrsmhR0BdtDPfkXuF7jbZF00isDcMUfpKjd5QcCy9Qo2bN2Odx1WHSn/GnIxI NrTQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM53330iR49KlDf0e7ana6UNRa2GRVidIOSoFRWuH0g9bUmX5d0JQS YuIZjftvicbUePXRUyPEYwCBj4Z3tu8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzitO7e8cUdxSgHxh02H/yaXAlgCrWxf6SSJ9wREy51Nf8LVu6mPbyUoiK2Dh6iJcgxbEOF/Q== X-Received: by 2002:a5d:5146:: with SMTP id u6mr3746466wrt.46.1610112886742; Fri, 08 Jan 2021 05:34:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.143] ([170.253.51.130]) by smtp.gmail.com with UTF8SMTPSA id y63sm12393182wmd.21.2021.01.08.05.34.45 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 08 Jan 2021 05:34:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: [PATCH] netlink.7, tcp.7: tfix: s/acknowledgment/acknowledgement To: "Michael Kerrisk (man-pages)" Cc: linux-man@vger.kernel.org References: <20210107165518.36629-1-alx.manpages@gmail.com> <59156288-13c4-ca10-ade3-5b83cd7c0902@gmail.com> <39255c4b-3d54-cae5-14ec-6122cfef8072@gmail.com> From: "Alejandro Colomar (man-pages)" Message-ID: <6280e52d-17bd-ea1e-49ac-a23f9e86f51c@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2021 14:34:45 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:84.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/84.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <39255c4b-3d54-cae5-14ec-6122cfef8072@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk List-ID: X-Mailing-List: linux-man@vger.kernel.org On 1/8/21 2:23 PM, Michael Kerrisk (man-pages) wrote: > Hello Alex, > > On 1/8/21 12:36 PM, Alejandro Colomar (man-pages) wrote: >> >> On 1/8/21 11:29 AM, Michael Kerrisk (man-pages) wrote: >>> Hi Alex, >>> >>> On 1/7/21 5:55 PM, Alejandro Colomar wrote: >>>> Signed-off-by: Alejandro Colomar >>> >>> Take a look at >>> >>> https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=acknowledgment%2Cacknowledgement&year_start=1800&year_end=2000&corpus=5&smoothing=3 >>> >>> and compare American English vs British English using the drop-down. >>> >>> When I inherited man-pages in 2004, it was a hodge-podge mix of >>> American vs British spelling. My native spelling is the latter, >>> but I value consistency and felt that things needed to be >>> standardized on one or other, and in computing, American is the >>> norm so that is what I settled on.hodge-podge >>> >>> I'm largely at piece with American spelling these days (it >>> is the spelling I use in most of my writing), but I guess >>> the one point that still bothers me are the American spellings >>> "acknowledgment" and "judgment". They just feel wrong. >> >> Yup >> >>> >>> However, I now learned from the Ngrams that even in British >>> English, the spelling without "e" was historically the norm. >>> So it seems that it is British English that has changed, >>> not American English! >>> >>> I was about to say that I must decline this patch. And then >>> I thought I'd take a look at the POSIX standard. It seems >>> to largely follow American spelling (e.g., "color", "canceled", >>> "recognize", "analog").[1] But, it uses "acknowledgement"! >>> (There are even a couple of instances of "judgement" in >>> the standard.) It seems like others like to have the >>> extra "e' in those words... >>> >>> So, I'm not sure what to do with this patch. >> >> Hey Michael, >> >> D'oh, I thought it was a typo! :-) >> >> American English surprises me. >> >> Yes I prefer American English, but I've also learn_ed_ British at >> school, (and learnt American through the internet), so I have a weird >> hodge-podge in my head too :p >> >> I guess many people though it was a typo from the data you put. Also see: >> >> $ grep -r acknowledgement \ >> |wc -l; >> grep: man7/.hostname.7.swp: binary file matches >> 69 >> $ grep -r acknowledgment \ >> |wc -l; >> 23 > > Okay -- this gets weirder and weirder. Look more closely > at what the grep found. Those instances of 'acknowledgement' > are almost all in the page comments containing BSD licenses! > > I thought to myself, that's strange: because BSD is from > California... Maybe some enthusiastic person did a > global edit in the distant past to change this to British > spelling in the Linux manual pages. But, it doesn't seem that > way. I grepped a few thousand header files that I've assembled > over the years from various OSes, and in the BSD licenses, > the vast majority use 'acknowledgement'. A few use > 'acknowledgment', but I suspect that those were changed > after importing from other places. > > It seems that the underground spelling resistance was strong > at Berkeley. > >> Nevertheless, I prefer American too, so I'd invert the patch. >> What about s/acknowledgement/acknowledgment/? > So, I still don't know what to do. I never much liked > the "American" "*dgment", but: > > (1) That seems to have been the historical form that > British English moved away from. > > (2) A couple of "American" groups (BSD, POSIX) use > the "British" spelling. > > Cheers, > > Michael > > PS I want to join the spelling resistance :-) Hello Michael, That made me think about it again, and well, a language isn't what books say, but what people actually use. That's something I learnt from the Catalan language, which some institutions constantly try to normalize differently than common usage, and it's weird, very very weird. So, if most people use *dgement, I'd say the word is correctly spelled *dgement. But we need a common spelling, because I was searching in vim for the word, and it was very weird because I knew the word was there, but it didn't show it to me. I had to manually move to the line to see that it was written differently, on the same page! :/ So I hereby insist on my initial patch :-} Cheers, Alex -- Alejandro Colomar Linux man-pages comaintainer; https://www.kernel.org/doc/man-pages/ http://www.alejandro-colomar.es/