From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id ; Thu, 21 Jun 2001 15:46:14 -0400 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id ; Thu, 21 Jun 2001 15:46:02 -0400 Received: from snark.tuxedo.org ([207.106.50.26]:8466 "EHLO snark.thyrsus.com") by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id ; Thu, 21 Jun 2001 15:45:50 -0400 Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 15:49:34 -0400 From: "Eric S. Raymond" To: CML2 , kbuild-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Missing help entries in 2.4.6pre5 Message-ID: <20010621154934.A6582@thyrsus.com> Reply-To: esr@thyrsus.com Mail-Followup-To: "Eric S. Raymond" , CML2 , kbuild-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org The following configuration symbols in 2.4.6pre5 do not have Congfgure.help entries,: CONFIG_ACPI_AC CONFIG_ACPI_BUSMGR CONFIG_ACPI_BUTTON CONFIG_ACPI_CMBATT CONFIG_ACPI_CPU CONFIG_ACPI_DEBUG CONFIG_ACPI_EC CONFIG_ACPI_SYS CONFIG_ACPI_THERMAL CONFIG_MOMENCO_OCELOT CONFIG_MTD_CFI_VIRTUAL_ER CONFIG_XSCALE_IQ80310 Would the responsible parties please send me doocumentation for the Configure.help masters? -- Eric S. Raymond Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed, as they are in almost every kingdom in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword, because the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops. -- Noah Webster From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id ; Thu, 21 Jun 2001 15:56:41 -0400 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id ; Thu, 21 Jun 2001 15:56:32 -0400 Received: from parcelfarce.linux.theplanet.co.uk ([195.92.249.252]:48396 "EHLO www.linux.org.uk") by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id ; Thu, 21 Jun 2001 15:56:11 -0400 Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 20:55:37 +0100 From: Russell King To: "Eric S. Raymond" , CML2 , kbuild-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: Missing help entries in 2.4.6pre5 Message-ID: <20010621205537.X18978@flint.arm.linux.org.uk> In-Reply-To: <20010621154934.A6582@thyrsus.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010621154934.A6582@thyrsus.com>; from esr@thyrsus.com on Thu, Jun 21, 2001 at 03:49:34PM -0400 Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org On Thu, Jun 21, 2001 at 03:49:34PM -0400, Eric S. Raymond wrote: > CONFIG_XSCALE_IQ80310 I think we've covered this one before. This symbol only exists as an undefined reference at the moment, and therefore can never be 'y'. As such, there is little point in providing help for it. Even the master ARM tree doesn't contain its definition yet, so please, stop bringing it up. The reason you have it is that stuff has come via a different route which relies on it - via the MTD CVS tree. The symbol is therefore currently irrelevent, and can be placed on your "ignore" list. -- Russell King (rmk@arm.linux.org.uk) The developer of ARM Linux http://www.arm.linux.org.uk/personal/aboutme.html From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id ; Thu, 21 Jun 2001 16:00:01 -0400 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id ; Thu, 21 Jun 2001 15:59:41 -0400 Received: from snark.tuxedo.org ([207.106.50.26]:10258 "EHLO snark.thyrsus.com") by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id ; Thu, 21 Jun 2001 15:59:30 -0400 Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 16:03:09 -0400 From: "Eric S. Raymond" To: Russell King Cc: CML2 , kbuild-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: Missing help entries in 2.4.6pre5 Message-ID: <20010621160309.A6744@thyrsus.com> Reply-To: esr@thyrsus.com Mail-Followup-To: "Eric S. Raymond" , Russell King , CML2 , kbuild-devel@lists.sourceforge.net In-Reply-To: <20010621154934.A6582@thyrsus.com> <20010621205537.X18978@flint.arm.linux.org.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010621205537.X18978@flint.arm.linux.org.uk>; from rmk@arm.linux.org.uk on Thu, Jun 21, 2001 at 08:55:37PM +0100 Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Russell King : > On Thu, Jun 21, 2001 at 03:49:34PM -0400, Eric S. Raymond wrote: > > CONFIG_XSCALE_IQ80310 > > I think we've covered this one before. Yes. But if I don't ask, I won't ncessarily know when it changes status. -- Eric S. Raymond The danger (where there is any) from armed citizens, is only to the *government*, not to *society*; and as long as they have nothing to revenge in the government (which they cannot have while it is in their own hands) there are many advantages in their being accustomed to the use of arms, and no possible disadvantage. -- Joel Barlow, "Advice to the Privileged Orders", 1792-93 From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id ; Thu, 21 Jun 2001 18:22:45 -0400 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id ; Thu, 21 Jun 2001 18:22:35 -0400 Received: from modemcable084.137-200-24.mtl.mc.videotron.ca ([24.200.137.84]:62453 "EHLO xanadu.home") by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id ; Thu, 21 Jun 2001 18:22:27 -0400 Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 18:22:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Nicolas Pitre X-X-Sender: To: "Eric S. Raymond" cc: CML2 , Subject: Re: Missing help entries in 2.4.6pre5 In-Reply-To: <20010621154934.A6582@thyrsus.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org On Thu, 21 Jun 2001, Eric S. Raymond wrote: > The following configuration symbols in 2.4.6pre5 do not have > Congfgure.help entries,: [...] > CONFIG_XSCALE_IQ80310 1- This symbol is mine; 2- It is part of 2.4.6-pre5 only as a dependency argument, with no point where a value is actually assigned to it; 3- It is likely to be different when the actual question for which the user need an help text is merged into the mainline kernel. So you can safely ignore it for now. Maybe it could be a good thing for your tool to ignore missing help text for symbols that don't get enabled interactively by the user? Nicolas From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id ; Thu, 21 Jun 2001 18:40:58 -0400 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id ; Thu, 21 Jun 2001 18:40:48 -0400 Received: from parcelfarce.linux.theplanet.co.uk ([195.92.249.252]:64018 "EHLO www.linux.org.uk") by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id ; Thu, 21 Jun 2001 18:40:35 -0400 Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 23:40:02 +0100 From: Russell King To: Nicolas Pitre Cc: "Eric S. Raymond" , CML2 , kbuild-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: Missing help entries in 2.4.6pre5 Message-ID: <20010621234002.Z18978@flint.arm.linux.org.uk> In-Reply-To: <20010621154934.A6582@thyrsus.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from nico@cam.org on Thu, Jun 21, 2001 at 06:22:22PM -0400 Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org On Thu, Jun 21, 2001 at 06:22:22PM -0400, Nicolas Pitre wrote: > On Thu, 21 Jun 2001, Eric S. Raymond wrote: > > The following configuration symbols in 2.4.6pre5 do not have > > Congfgure.help entries,: > [...] > > CONFIG_XSCALE_IQ80310 > > 1- This symbol is mine; > 2- It is part of 2.4.6-pre5 only as a dependency argument, with no > point where a value is actually assigned to it; > 3- It is likely to be different when the actual question for which the > user need an help text is merged into the mainline kernel. > > So you can safely ignore it for now. > > Maybe it could be a good thing for your tool to ignore missing help text for > symbols that don't get enabled interactively by the user? Eric - would it be easier if I just define_bool CONFIG_XSCALE_IQ80310 n ? -- Russell King (rmk@arm.linux.org.uk) The developer of ARM Linux http://www.arm.linux.org.uk/personal/aboutme.html From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id ; Thu, 21 Jun 2001 18:48:30 -0400 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id ; Thu, 21 Jun 2001 18:48:20 -0400 Received: from snark.tuxedo.org ([207.106.50.26]:20228 "EHLO snark.thyrsus.com") by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id ; Thu, 21 Jun 2001 18:48:09 -0400 Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 18:51:44 -0400 From: "Eric S. Raymond" To: Russell King Cc: Nicolas Pitre , CML2 , kbuild-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: Missing help entries in 2.4.6pre5 Message-ID: <20010621185144.A8669@thyrsus.com> Reply-To: esr@thyrsus.com Mail-Followup-To: "Eric S. Raymond" , Russell King , Nicolas Pitre , CML2 , kbuild-devel@lists.sourceforge.net In-Reply-To: <20010621154934.A6582@thyrsus.com> <20010621234002.Z18978@flint.arm.linux.org.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010621234002.Z18978@flint.arm.linux.org.uk>; from rmk@arm.linux.org.uk on Thu, Jun 21, 2001 at 11:40:02PM +0100 Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Russell King : > Eric - would it be easier if I just define_bool CONFIG_XSCALE_IQ80310 n ? I've done that in my rulesfile, thanks. Here is the current list of ignored symbols: derive CMDLINE_BOOL from n derive CPU_ADVANCED from EXPERT derive DRM_AGP from DRM and AGP!=n derive FB_PCI from FB and PCI derive FB_TBOX from n derive NET_ISA from NET_ETHERNET and ISA derive NET_PCI from NET_ETHERNET and (EISA or PCI) derive PARTITION_ADVANCED from EXPERT # These are scheduled to be removed, according to the ARM port manager. derive CPU_ARM920_CPU_IDLE from n derive CPU_ARM920_D_CACHE_ON from n derive CPU_ARM920_I_CACHE_ON from n # Nicolas Pitre says "This one is currently unmaintained and likely to be # removed altogether." derive SA1100_SHERMAN from n # These are used in config.in files but nowhere in C code or Makefiles. # Check this with `scripts/kxref.py -l -f "o&~m&~c&~h&~x" -n defconfig' derive ARCH_SHARK from n derive ARCH_TBOX from n derive BAGETBSM from n derive CPU_ARM1020 from n derive CPU_ARM920_WRITETHROUGH from n derive ETRAX_LED10Y from n derive ETRAX_LED11Y from n derive ETRAX_LED12R from n derive ETRAX_LED8Y from n derive ETRAX_LED9Y from n derive GEN_RTC from n derive GSC from n derive GSC_DINO from n derive GSC_PS2 from n derive LASI_82596 from n derive MIPS_GT96100 from n derive PCI_PERMEDIA from n derive PROFILE from n derive PROFILE_SHIFT from n derive SCSI_DECSII from n derive SCSI_LASI from n derive SCSI_SIM from n derive SERIAL_21285_OLD from n derive SIMETH from n derive SIM_SERIAL from n derive USERIAL from n derive XSCALE_IQ80310 from n -- Eric S. Raymond "The state calls its own violence `law', but that of the individual `crime'" -- Max Stirner From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id ; Thu, 21 Jun 2001 22:14:14 -0400 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id ; Thu, 21 Jun 2001 22:14:04 -0400 Received: from snark.tuxedo.org ([207.106.50.26]:16902 "EHLO snark.thyrsus.com") by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id ; Thu, 21 Jun 2001 22:13:59 -0400 Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 22:15:51 -0400 From: "Eric S. Raymond" To: Nicolas Pitre Cc: CML2 , kbuild-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: Missing help entries in 2.4.6pre5 Message-ID: <20010621221551.A9839@thyrsus.com> Reply-To: esr@thyrsus.com Mail-Followup-To: "Eric S. Raymond" , Nicolas Pitre , CML2 , kbuild-devel@lists.sourceforge.net In-Reply-To: <20010621154934.A6582@thyrsus.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from nico@cam.org on Thu, Jun 21, 2001 at 06:22:22PM -0400 Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Nicolas Pitre : > > CONFIG_XSCALE_IQ80310 > > 1- This symbol is mine; > 2- It is part of 2.4.6-pre5 only as a dependency argument, with no > point where a value is actually assigned to it; > 3- It is likely to be different when the actual question for which the > user need an help text is merged into the mainline kernel. > > So you can safely ignore it for now. I've put it on my ignore list. > Maybe it could be a good thing for your tool to ignore missing help text for > symbols that don't get enabled interactively by the user? It already does that for derivations (in CML1, define_*). The real problem here is that my report generators aren't smart enough to tell when a CML1 symbol is referenced in a CML1 config but never set. That problem could be solved, but it's unusual that I don't think it's worth the effort. -- Eric S. Raymond The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. -- Thomas Jefferson, 1823 From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 04:13:55 -0400 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 04:13:46 -0400 Received: from t2.redhat.com ([199.183.24.243]:44283 "EHLO passion.cambridge.redhat.com") by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 04:13:32 -0400 X-Mailer: exmh version 2.3 01/15/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 From: David Woodhouse X-Accept-Language: en_GB In-Reply-To: <20010621160309.A6744@thyrsus.com> In-Reply-To: <20010621160309.A6744@thyrsus.com> <20010621154934.A6582@thyrsus.com> <20010621205537.X18978@flint.arm.linux.org.uk> To: esr@thyrsus.com Cc: Russell King , CML2 , kbuild-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: Missing help entries in 2.4.6pre5 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 09:13:24 +0100 Message-ID: <7987.993197604@redhat.com> Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org esr@thyrsus.com said: > > I think we've covered this one before. > Yes. But if I don't ask, I won't ncessarily know when it changes > status. It hasn't changed status in the last five days since your query was last answered. When it gets defined in arch/arm/config.in, its status has changed. Until that happens, please don't keep asking about it every few dayus. -- dwmw2 From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 04:24:56 -0400 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 04:24:47 -0400 Received: from t2.redhat.com ([199.183.24.243]:46587 "EHLO passion.cambridge.redhat.com") by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 04:24:38 -0400 X-Mailer: exmh version 2.3 01/15/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 From: David Woodhouse X-Accept-Language: en_GB In-Reply-To: <20010621185144.A8669@thyrsus.com> In-Reply-To: <20010621185144.A8669@thyrsus.com> <20010621154934.A6582@thyrsus.com> <20010621234002.Z18978@flint.arm.linux.org.uk> To: esr@thyrsus.com Cc: Russell King , Nicolas Pitre , CML2 , kbuild-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: Missing help entries in 2.4.6pre5 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 09:24:32 +0100 Message-ID: <8226.993198272@redhat.com> Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org esr@thyrsus.com said: > I've done that in my rulesfile, thanks. Here is the current list of > ignored symbols: > derive CMDLINE_BOOL from n ....etc... That'll nicely break oldconfig behaviour when the options in question do get merged into the main tree, won't it? Can you make them optional instead? So for normal users they're still _really_ undefined, and hence get asked about when they appear, rather than defaulting to 'n'. -- dwmw2 From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 09:49:01 -0400 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 09:48:51 -0400 Received: from snark.tuxedo.org ([207.106.50.26]:25096 "EHLO snark.thyrsus.com") by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 09:48:34 -0400 Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 09:51:59 -0400 From: "Eric S. Raymond" To: David Woodhouse Cc: Russell King , Nicolas Pitre , CML2 , kbuild-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: Missing help entries in 2.4.6pre5 Message-ID: <20010622095159.B13075@thyrsus.com> Reply-To: esr@thyrsus.com Mail-Followup-To: "Eric S. Raymond" , David Woodhouse , Russell King , Nicolas Pitre , CML2 , kbuild-devel@lists.sourceforge.net In-Reply-To: <20010621185144.A8669@thyrsus.com> <20010621154934.A6582@thyrsus.com> <20010621234002.Z18978@flint.arm.linux.org.uk> <20010621185144.A8669@thyrsus.com> <8226.993198272@redhat.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <8226.993198272@redhat.com>; from dwmw2@infradead.org on Fri, Jun 22, 2001 at 09:24:32AM +0100 Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org David Woodhouse : > > esr@thyrsus.com said: > > I've done that in my rulesfile, thanks. Here is the current list of > > ignored symbols: > > > derive CMDLINE_BOOL from n > ....etc... > > > That'll nicely break oldconfig behaviour when the options in question do > get merged into the main tree, won't it? Actually, what will happen is that when the symbol goes active and I know about it, I'll add a declaration to the symbols table. Then, if I've forgotten that I had the symbol on my ignore list, I'll get a compilation error the next time I try to builsd a rulebase. -- Eric S. Raymond A ``decay in the social contract'' is detectable; there is a growing feeling, particularly among middle-income taxpayers, that they are not getting back, from society and government, their money's worth for taxes paid. The tendency is for taxpayers to try to take more control of their finances .. -- IRS Strategic Plan, (May 1984) From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 09:46:29 -0400 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 09:46:19 -0400 Received: from snark.tuxedo.org ([207.106.50.26]:23304 "EHLO snark.thyrsus.com") by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 09:46:06 -0400 Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 09:49:34 -0400 From: "Eric S. Raymond" To: David Woodhouse Cc: Russell King , CML2 , kbuild-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: Missing help entries in 2.4.6pre5 Message-ID: <20010622094934.A13075@thyrsus.com> Reply-To: esr@thyrsus.com Mail-Followup-To: "Eric S. Raymond" , David Woodhouse , Russell King , CML2 , kbuild-devel@lists.sourceforge.net In-Reply-To: <20010621160309.A6744@thyrsus.com> <20010621154934.A6582@thyrsus.com> <20010621205537.X18978@flint.arm.linux.org.uk> <20010621160309.A6744@thyrsus.com> <7987.993197604@redhat.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <7987.993197604@redhat.com>; from dwmw2@infradead.org on Fri, Jun 22, 2001 at 09:13:24AM +0100 Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org David Woodhouse : > It hasn't changed status in the last five days since your query was last > answered. When it gets defined in arch/arm/config.in, its status has > changed. Until that happens, please don't keep asking about it every few > dayus. You're a bit irritated. That's good. I *want* people who don't write help entries for their configuration symbols to be a bit irritated. That way, they might get around to actually doing what they ought to. -- Eric S. Raymond I don't like the idea that the police department seems bent on keeping a pool of unarmed victims available for the predations of the criminal class. -- David Mohler, 1989, on being denied a carry permit in NYC From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 09:51:21 -0400 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 09:51:11 -0400 Received: from snark.tuxedo.org ([207.106.50.26]:26120 "EHLO snark.thyrsus.com") by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 09:51:01 -0400 Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 09:54:26 -0400 From: "Eric S. Raymond" To: Russell King Cc: David Woodhouse , CML2 , kbuild-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: Missing help entries in 2.4.6pre5 Message-ID: <20010622095426.C13075@thyrsus.com> Reply-To: esr@thyrsus.com Mail-Followup-To: "Eric S. Raymond" , Russell King , David Woodhouse , CML2 , kbuild-devel@lists.sourceforge.net In-Reply-To: <20010621160309.A6744@thyrsus.com> <20010621154934.A6582@thyrsus.com> <20010621205537.X18978@flint.arm.linux.org.uk> <20010621160309.A6744@thyrsus.com> <7987.993197604@redhat.com> <20010622094934.A13075@thyrsus.com> <20010622144708.D22351@flint.arm.linux.org.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010622144708.D22351@flint.arm.linux.org.uk>; from rmk@arm.linux.org.uk on Fri, Jun 22, 2001 at 02:47:08PM +0100 Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Russell King : > On Fri, Jun 22, 2001 at 09:49:34AM -0400, Eric S. Raymond wrote: > > You're a bit irritated. That's good. I *want* people who don't write > > help entries for their configuration symbols to be a bit irritated. > > That way, they might get around to actually doing what they ought to. > > The people you're irritating are not the people who create these symbols > though, so its a little pointless. Irritating port managers a little is good, too. Sometimes, they can get the right person to move. It's happened before. -- Eric S. Raymond A ``decay in the social contract'' is detectable; there is a growing feeling, particularly among middle-income taxpayers, that they are not getting back, from society and government, their money's worth for taxes paid. The tendency is for taxpayers to try to take more control of their finances .. -- IRS Strategic Plan, (May 1984) From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 09:47:41 -0400 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 09:47:31 -0400 Received: from parcelfarce.linux.theplanet.co.uk ([195.92.249.252]:12817 "EHLO www.linux.org.uk") by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 09:47:19 -0400 Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 14:47:08 +0100 From: Russell King To: "Eric S. Raymond" , David Woodhouse , CML2 , kbuild-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: Missing help entries in 2.4.6pre5 Message-ID: <20010622144708.D22351@flint.arm.linux.org.uk> In-Reply-To: <20010621160309.A6744@thyrsus.com> <20010621154934.A6582@thyrsus.com> <20010621205537.X18978@flint.arm.linux.org.uk> <20010621160309.A6744@thyrsus.com> <7987.993197604@redhat.com> <20010622094934.A13075@thyrsus.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010622094934.A13075@thyrsus.com>; from esr@thyrsus.com on Fri, Jun 22, 2001 at 09:49:34AM -0400 Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org On Fri, Jun 22, 2001 at 09:49:34AM -0400, Eric S. Raymond wrote: > You're a bit irritated. That's good. I *want* people who don't write > help entries for their configuration symbols to be a bit irritated. > That way, they might get around to actually doing what they ought to. The people you're irritating are not the people who create these symbols though, so its a little pointless. -- Russell King (rmk@arm.linux.org.uk) The developer of ARM Linux http://www.arm.linux.org.uk/personal/aboutme.html From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 09:54:51 -0400 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 09:54:41 -0400 Received: from parcelfarce.linux.theplanet.co.uk ([195.92.249.252]:22033 "EHLO www.linux.org.uk") by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 09:54:29 -0400 Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 14:54:26 +0100 From: Russell King To: "Eric S. Raymond" , David Woodhouse , CML2 , kbuild-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: Missing help entries in 2.4.6pre5 Message-ID: <20010622145426.F22351@flint.arm.linux.org.uk> In-Reply-To: <20010621160309.A6744@thyrsus.com> <20010621154934.A6582@thyrsus.com> <20010621205537.X18978@flint.arm.linux.org.uk> <20010621160309.A6744@thyrsus.com> <7987.993197604@redhat.com> <20010622094934.A13075@thyrsus.com> <20010622144708.D22351@flint.arm.linux.org.uk> <20010622095426.C13075@thyrsus.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20010622095426.C13075@thyrsus.com>; from esr@thyrsus.com on Fri, Jun 22, 2001 at 09:54:26AM -0400 Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org On Fri, Jun 22, 2001 at 09:54:26AM -0400, Eric S. Raymond wrote: > Irritating port managers a little is good, too. Sometimes, they can get > the right person to move. It's happened before. You really don't want to irritate me, especially when its over something I have precisely zero control over that I didn't even submit, or have the ability of submitting either. -- Russell King (rmk@arm.linux.org.uk) The developer of ARM Linux http://www.arm.linux.org.uk/personal/aboutme.html From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 09:57:21 -0400 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 09:57:11 -0400 Received: from t2.redhat.com ([199.183.24.243]:64252 "EHLO passion.cambridge.redhat.com") by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 09:57:02 -0400 X-Mailer: exmh version 2.3 01/15/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 From: David Woodhouse X-Accept-Language: en_GB In-Reply-To: <20010622094934.A13075@thyrsus.com> In-Reply-To: <20010622094934.A13075@thyrsus.com> <20010621160309.A6744@thyrsus.com> <20010621154934.A6582@thyrsus.com> <20010621205537.X18978@flint.arm.linux.org.uk> <20010621160309.A6744@thyrsus.com> <7987.993197604@redhat.com> To: esr@thyrsus.com Cc: Russell King , CML2 , kbuild-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: Missing help entries in 2.4.6pre5 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 14:56:50 +0100 Message-ID: <10604.993218210@redhat.com> Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org esr@thyrsus.com said: > You're a bit irritated. That's good. I *want* people who don't > write help entries for their configuration symbols to be a bit > irritated. That way, they might get around to actually doing what they > ought to. I wasn't irritated the first time. I sent you a patch which added all the help entries I'd missed, and thanked you for checking. To be honest, I'd actually been counting on you to do that for me and catch the ones I'd missed. The irritation only happened because you seem to have ignored the remainder of my original response and patch - which explained the status of the Ocelot and XScale options, and which removed the other offending option from Config.in completely. I'd removed the corresponding code before syncing up with Linus because it wanted rewriting before it could be submitted, just forgotten to remove the config option for it. I'm already rejecting patches which add new config entries but don't add the corresponding help text. What more do you want? -- dwmw2 From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 10:01:11 -0400 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 10:01:01 -0400 Received: from ncc1701.cistron.net ([195.64.68.38]:6404 "EHLO ncc1701.cistron.net") by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 10:00:52 -0400 From: wichert@cistron.nl (Wichert Akkerman) Subject: Re: Missing help entries in 2.4.6pre5 Date: 22 Jun 2001 16:00:48 +0200 Organization: Cistron Internet Services Message-ID: <9gvj2g$khc$1@picard.cistron.nl> In-Reply-To: <20010621160309.A6744@thyrsus.com> <20010621160309.A6744@thyrsus.com> <7987.993197604@redhat.com> <20010622094934.A13075@thyrsus.com> To: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org In article <20010622094934.A13075@thyrsus.com>, Eric S. Raymond wrote: >You're a bit irritated. That's good. I *want* people who don't write >help entries for their configuration symbols to be a bit irritated. >That way, they might get around to actually doing what they ought to. You mean you actually want people to start ignoring you? Wichert. -- _________________________________________________________________ / Nothing is fool-proof to a sufficiently talented fool \ | wichert@wiggy.net http://www.liacs.nl/~wichert/ | | 1024D/2FA3BC2D 576E 100B 518D 2F16 36B0 2805 3CB8 9250 2FA3 BC2D | -- _________________________________________________________________ / Nothing is fool-proof to a sufficiently talented fool \ | wichert@wiggy.net http://www.liacs.nl/~wichert/ | | 1024D/2FA3BC2D 576E 100B 518D 2F16 36B0 2805 3CB8 9250 2FA3 BC2D | From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 10:27:01 -0400 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 10:26:51 -0400 Received: from snark.tuxedo.org ([207.106.50.26]:53000 "EHLO snark.thyrsus.com") by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 10:26:33 -0400 Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 10:24:58 -0400 From: "Eric S. Raymond" To: David Woodhouse Cc: Russell King , CML2 , kbuild-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: Missing help entries in 2.4.6pre5 Message-ID: <20010622102458.A13435@thyrsus.com> Reply-To: esr@thyrsus.com Mail-Followup-To: "Eric S. Raymond" , David Woodhouse , Russell King , CML2 , kbuild-devel@lists.sourceforge.net In-Reply-To: <20010622094934.A13075@thyrsus.com> <20010621160309.A6744@thyrsus.com> <20010621154934.A6582@thyrsus.com> <20010621205537.X18978@flint.arm.linux.org.uk> <20010621160309.A6744@thyrsus.com> <7987.993197604@redhat.com> <20010622094934.A13075@thyrsus.com> <10604.993218210@redhat.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <10604.993218210@redhat.com>; from dwmw2@infradead.org on Fri, Jun 22, 2001 at 02:56:50PM +0100 Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org David Woodhouse : > The irritation only happened because you seem to have ignored the remainder > of my original response and patch - which explained the status of the Ocelot > and XScale options, and which removed the other offending option from > Config.in completely. I'd removed the corresponding code before syncing up > with Linus because it wanted rewriting before it could be submitted, just > forgotten to remove the config option for it. No, I remember that. But if I don't remind lkml periodically that there is work not done on this, I fear it will slide to the bottom of peoples' to-do lists and fall off. That's how we got to the distressing state where about 1/4 of the configuration symbols weren't documented. I solved this problem by (a) working like a dog at writing help entries myself, and (b) using a combination of supplication and irritation on configuration maintainers to get them to hold up their end. This was effective; we've gone from 537 undocumented symbols to 2. In any situation like this, supplication tends to work well initially; you catch the cooperative people who would almost have done what you needed anyway, which is usually 60% or more of them. As you get towards the bottom of the barrel, (subtle) irritation becomes more important. While it isn't *necessarily* the case that the last few holdouts won't move unless you're a persistent pain in the butt about it, that's the smart way to bet. (I've done jobs like this before. Couldn't you tell? :-)) > I'm already rejecting patches which add new config entries but don't add > the corresponding help text. What more do you want? That's very good, and I thank you for that policy. From *you*, I don't want anything else. From the person(s) reponsible for the missing symbols, I want documentation. The problem is that, lacking a detailed database of who is responsible for what, I don't know how to prod each of the people I really want to supplicate/irritate without having you see it also. -- Eric S. Raymond Rifles, muskets, long-bows and hand-grenades are inherently democratic weapons. A complex weapon makes the strong stronger, while a simple weapon -- so long as there is no answer to it -- gives claws to the weak. -- George Orwell, "You and the Atom Bomb", 1945 From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 10:29:21 -0400 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 10:29:11 -0400 Received: from biglinux.tccw.wku.edu ([161.6.10.206]:62375 "EHLO biglinux.tccw.wku.edu") by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 10:29:01 -0400 Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 09:28:51 -0500 (CDT) From: "Brent D. Norris" To: Russell King cc: "Eric S. Raymond" , David Woodhouse , CML2 , Subject: Re: Missing help entries in 2.4.6pre5 In-Reply-To: <20010622145426.F22351@flint.arm.linux.org.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org > You really don't want to irritate me, especially when its over something > I have precisely zero control over that I didn't even submit, or have the > ability of submitting either. "Don't make me angry. You wouldn't like me when I am angry" -- Dr. Bruce Banner C'mon guys you are each trying to do your job. No sense getting crazy over it. Brent Norris Executive Advisor -- WKU-Linux From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 10:48:51 -0400 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 10:48:41 -0400 Received: from mailsorter.ma.tmpw.net ([63.112.169.25]:25120 "EHLO mailsorter1.ma.tmpw.net") by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 10:48:27 -0400 Message-ID: <3AB544CBBBE7BF428DA7DBEA1B85C79C9B6BEA@nocmail.ma.tmpw.net> From: "Holzrichter, Bruce" To: "'esr@thyrsus.com'" , David Woodhouse Cc: Russell King , CML2 , kbuild-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: RE: Missing help entries in 2.4.6pre5 Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 10:47:03 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org >>From the person(s) reponsible for the missing symbols, >I want documentation. The problem is that, lacking a detailed database >of who is responsible for what, I don't know how to prod each of the >people I really want to supplicate/irritate without having you see it >also. Now that sounds like a credible idea. Would it be possible to set up a LK maintainers master list, and host from www.kernel.org or somewhere (Not knowing anyone at kernel.org, I can't speak for them.) that could be linked from sites, and have one person or maintainer in charge of keeping track of who is in charge of maintaining what. This could be a point of contact for issues like this, and where they can be addressed. It would be a large administrative project, but could be a point of help for some of us who are not quite capable of real kernel level hacking yet :o) B. PS. I may have just volunteered, I guess. If someone would be interested, or if their already is a list, let me know offline if you prefer. From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 10:58:31 -0400 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 10:58:21 -0400 Received: from zeus.kernel.org ([209.10.41.242]:7569 "EHLO zeus.kernel.org") by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 10:58:13 -0400 X-Mailer: exmh version 2.3 01/15/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 From: David Woodhouse X-Accept-Language: en_GB In-Reply-To: <20010622102458.A13435@thyrsus.com> In-Reply-To: <20010622102458.A13435@thyrsus.com> <20010622094934.A13075@thyrsus.com> <20010621160309.A6744@thyrsus.com> <20010621154934.A6582@thyrsus.com> <20010621205537.X18978@flint.arm.linux.org.uk> <20010621160309.A6744@thyrsus.com> <7987.993197604@redhat.com> <20010622094934.A13075@thyrsus.com> <10604.993218210@redhat.com> To: esr@thyrsus.com Cc: Russell King , CML2 , kbuild-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: Missing help entries in 2.4.6pre5 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 15:54:53 +0100 Message-ID: <18157.993221693@redhat.com> Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org esr@thyrsus.com said: > From the person(s) reponsible for the missing symbols, I want > documentation. The problem is that, lacking a detailed database of > who is responsible for what, I don't know how to prod each of the > people I really want to supplicate/irritate without having you see it > also. In fact, in the case of the Ocelot and IQ80310, I _am_ the person responsible for their visibility in Linus' tree at the moment, so you shouldn't be hassling the owners of those symbols. I put the references there, as guards for drivers which are specific to those platforms, although the rest of the support for those platforms hasn't yet been merged into Linus' tree. Until such time as the {Strong,}ARM and MIPS arch maintainers feed the rest of the code to support these platforms to Linus, it's unfair to hassle them for the documentation. And until that time, it's not strictly necessary either, because the user can't even see the options in question, surely? You could perhaps argue that I shouldn't have sent code to Linus which can't yet be enabled and used. If you did, I'd disagree with that. The VIRTUAL_ER option is also my fault, and will go away shortly - it just depends on how many times I have to resend the patch to Linus. -- dwmw2 From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 11:45:22 -0400 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 11:45:02 -0400 Received: from router-100M.swansea.linux.org.uk ([194.168.151.17]:57098 "EHLO the-village.bc.nu") by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 11:44:58 -0400 Subject: Re: Missing help entries in 2.4.6pre5 To: esr@thyrsus.com Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 16:43:23 +0100 (BST) Cc: dwmw2@infradead.org (David Woodhouse), rmk@arm.linux.org.uk (Russell King), linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org (CML2), kbuild-devel@lists.sourceforge.net In-Reply-To: <20010622094934.A13075@thyrsus.com> from "Eric S. Raymond" at Jun 22, 2001 09:49:34 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL3] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: From: Alan Cox Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org > You're a bit irritated. That's good. I *want* people who don't write > help entries for their configuration symbols to be a bit irritated. > That way, they might get around to actually doing what they ought to. Umm yes so you irritate people and you end up in their killfiles, that doesn't strike me as stunningly productive From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 11:58:52 -0400 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 11:58:44 -0400 Received: from snark.tuxedo.org ([207.106.50.26]:20233 "EHLO snark.thyrsus.com") by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 11:58:34 -0400 Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 12:01:50 -0400 From: "Eric S. Raymond" To: Alan Cox Cc: David Woodhouse , Russell King , CML2 , kbuild-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: Missing help entries in 2.4.6pre5 Message-ID: <20010622120150.A14207@thyrsus.com> Reply-To: esr@thyrsus.com Mail-Followup-To: "Eric S. Raymond" , Alan Cox , David Woodhouse , Russell King , CML2 , kbuild-devel@lists.sourceforge.net In-Reply-To: <20010622094934.A13075@thyrsus.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk on Fri, Jun 22, 2001 at 04:43:23PM +0100 Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Alan Cox : > > You're a bit irritated. That's good. I *want* people who don't write > > help entries for their configuration symbols to be a bit irritated. > > That way, they might get around to actually doing what they ought to. > > Umm yes so you irritate people and you end up in their killfiles, > that doesn't strike me as stunningly productive That's why it's important to be irritating but not obnoxious. The difference is that between reminding people that there is work to be done and being insulting about it. Thus, I post lists of symbols for which there is missing help, but I don't cast aspersions on the people who haven't come through yet (however tempting that sometimes seems). I also find it helpful to be up front about *why* I'm being irritating, just as I'm doing now. When people understand that it's professional rather than personal, they don't tend to killfile me. -- Eric S. Raymond "To disarm the people... was the best and most effectual way to enslave them." -- George Mason, speech of June 14, 1788 From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 12:28:12 -0400 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 12:28:02 -0400 Received: from t2.redhat.com ([199.183.24.243]:31982 "EHLO passion.cambridge.redhat.com") by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 12:27:53 -0400 X-Mailer: exmh version 2.3 01/15/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 From: David Woodhouse X-Accept-Language: en_GB In-Reply-To: <20010622111154.A13799@thyrsus.com> In-Reply-To: <20010622111154.A13799@thyrsus.com> <20010622094934.A13075@thyrsus.com> <20010621160309.A6744@thyrsus.com> <20010621154934.A6582@thyrsus.com> <20010621205537.X18978@flint.arm.linux.org.uk> <20010621160309.A6744@thyrsus.com> <7987.993197604@redhat.com> <20010622094934.A13075@thyrsus.com> <10604.993218210@redhat.com> <20010622102458.A13435@thyrsus.com> <18157.993221693@redhat.com> To: esr@thyrsus.com Cc: Russell King , CML2 , kbuild-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: Missing help entries in 2.4.6pre5 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 17:27:46 +0100 Message-ID: <28493.993227266@redhat.com> Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org esr@thyrsus.com said: > Alas, my report generators aren't smart enough to know that. The > CML1 config syntax makes it hard to extract that kind of information, > and I haven't worked at it because the CML2 cutover looks like > happening fairly soon. When I know there's an exception case, I put > it on my ignore list. OK. You didn't put these two on your ignore list the first time I told you about them. Can I assume, then, that you've done so now and you won't be asking about them again for a while? I'll resend the patch which removes the unused VIRTUAL_ER config option if Linus hasn't applied it when 2.4.6 proper comes out. -- dwmw2 From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 13:09:55 -0400 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 13:09:45 -0400 Received: from snark.tuxedo.org ([207.106.50.26]:38665 "EHLO snark.thyrsus.com") by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 13:09:27 -0400 Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 13:12:56 -0400 From: "Eric S. Raymond" To: David Woodhouse Cc: Russell King , CML2 , kbuild-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: Missing help entries in 2.4.6pre5 Message-ID: <20010622131256.B14651@thyrsus.com> Reply-To: esr@thyrsus.com Mail-Followup-To: "Eric S. Raymond" , David Woodhouse , Russell King , CML2 , kbuild-devel@lists.sourceforge.net In-Reply-To: <20010621154934.A6582@thyrsus.com> <20010621205537.X18978@flint.arm.linux.org.uk> <20010621160309.A6744@thyrsus.com> <7987.993197604@redhat.com> <20010622094934.A13075@thyrsus.com> <10604.993218210@redhat.com> <20010622102458.A13435@thyrsus.com> <18157.993221693@redhat.com> <20010622111154.A13799@thyrsus.com> <28493.993227266@redhat.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <28493.993227266@redhat.com>; from dwmw2@infradead.org on Fri, Jun 22, 2001 at 05:27:46PM +0100 Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org David Woodhouse : > OK. You didn't put these two on your ignore list the first time I told you > about them. Can I assume, then, that you've done so now and you won't be > asking about them again for a while? Yes. -- Eric S. Raymond "Say what you like about my bloody murderous government," I says, "but don't insult me poor bleedin' country." -- Edward Abbey From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id ; Sat, 23 Jun 2001 19:33:46 -0400 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id ; Sat, 23 Jun 2001 19:33:37 -0400 Received: from 216-60-128-137.ati.utexas.edu ([216.60.128.137]:46995 "HELO tsunami.webofficenow.com") by vger.kernel.org with SMTP id ; Sat, 23 Jun 2001 19:33:24 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII From: Rob Landley Reply-To: landley@webofficenow.com To: wichert@cistron.nl (Wichert Akkerman), linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Subject: Re: Missing help entries in 2.4.6pre5 Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 10:13:28 -0400 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.2] In-Reply-To: <20010621160309.A6744@thyrsus.com> <20010622094934.A13075@thyrsus.com> <9gvj2g$khc$1@picard.cistron.nl> In-Reply-To: <9gvj2g$khc$1@picard.cistron.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <0106221013280M.00692@localhost.localdomain> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org On Friday 22 June 2001 10:00, Wichert Akkerman wrote: > In article <20010622094934.A13075@thyrsus.com>, > > Eric S. Raymond wrote: > >You're a bit irritated. That's good. I *want* people who don't write > >help entries for their configuration symbols to be a bit irritated. > >That way, they might get around to actually doing what they ought to. > > You mean you actually want people to start ignoring you? There's a really simple solution to that. Eric can just make up his own help file entries that are wildly inaccurate and actively insulting to whoever it is who owns the symbol. Something along the lines of: "Enabling this subsystem may cause your house to burn down and your dog to explode. The prevailing opinion is that Linus was probably blackmailed into including this option by someone with naked pictures of his cat. It's useless and irritating, and just might be removed soon, so don't count on it continuing to be there. Nobody knows how to use it because they didn't provide any documentation for it." Then they're welcome to ignore it. :) Rob (As mel brooks said, it's good to be the help file maintainer...) From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id ; Sat, 23 Jun 2001 20:06:11 -0400 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id ; Sat, 23 Jun 2001 20:05:52 -0400 Received: from t2.redhat.com ([199.183.24.243]:51698 "EHLO passion.cambridge.redhat.com") by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id ; Sat, 23 Jun 2001 20:05:51 -0400 X-Mailer: exmh version 2.3 01/15/2001 with nmh-1.0.4 From: David Woodhouse X-Accept-Language: en_GB In-Reply-To: <0106221013280M.00692@localhost.localdomain> In-Reply-To: <0106221013280M.00692@localhost.localdomain> <20010621160309.A6744@thyrsus.com> <20010622094934.A13075@thyrsus.com> <9gvj2g$khc$1@picard.cistron.nl> To: landley@webofficenow.com Cc: wichert@cistron.nl (Wichert Akkerman), linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Subject: Re: Missing help entries in 2.4.6pre5 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 01:05:45 +0100 Message-ID: <31580.993341145@redhat.com> Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org landley@webofficenow.com said: > There's a really simple solution to that. Eric can just make up his > own help file entries that are wildly inaccurate and actively > insulting to whoever it is who owns the symbol. Heh. Lets not be too harsh though. Chasing people who add config options without help text is a thankless task for the most part, but I'm grateful to ESR for doing it. I must admit I was actually counting on him to catch the ones I'd missed. It was only when he ignored my patch which removed an offending symbol and explained the status of a couple of false positives, and kept asking about them instead of placing them on his 'ignore' list that it became irritating. I objected, he assures me they're on the ignore list now, and we're all happy. -- dwmw2