From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from uggla.sjd.se (uggla.sjd.se [178.174.241.107]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.subspace.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2BE3214831C for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2025 19:42:22 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; arc=none smtp.client-ip=178.174.241.107 ARC-Seal:i=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=subspace.kernel.org; s=arc-20240116; t=1737661347; cv=none; b=sgiviorjRE+b3nAoHLlNPgR+V4mpB8sDbmJZ9wDbQPgxVR0q/t8M5xlo3qzLK8viWTiOQpa7QOsVPdjZfxLi/up+Tc38e5dm3PAre6n61fQh2HPe2cyiE+asiE6o+UQnxfjsuIzSGgHWavKK9QPggXi5weavtJNEtFvEsJO8yIE= ARC-Message-Signature:i=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=subspace.kernel.org; s=arc-20240116; t=1737661347; c=relaxed/simple; bh=C+uhPwKEagSR6MegukqOcgvFvLdmYGwN80LPAKFJNsg=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:Message-ID: MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=rAzbTlUVsiKylbVT5FLPvdbVwDvaEqRcSnNfrHW2bppGD8mDiE5BjgpkBnG/Fx6+GvFNIhqTon85YHDR9nNI2xdXBMb7uA+5HvJHe2lHUyJLtt7WE5MzSL19Es5Tlt1FQiOE2p8iRvHngiJNj/nCDEF8BmE45TWLGLe54yzXB4A= ARC-Authentication-Results:i=1; smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dmarc=pass (p=quarantine dis=none) header.from=josefsson.org; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=josefsson.org; dkim=permerror (0-bit key) header.d=josefsson.org header.i=@josefsson.org header.b=iRRGwtRK; dkim=temperror (0-bit key) header.d=josefsson.org header.i=@josefsson.org header.b=iw7ExUZp; arc=none smtp.client-ip=178.174.241.107 Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dmarc=pass (p=quarantine dis=none) header.from=josefsson.org Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=josefsson.org Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dkim=permerror (0-bit key) header.d=josefsson.org header.i=@josefsson.org header.b="iRRGwtRK"; dkim=temperror (0-bit key) header.d=josefsson.org header.i=@josefsson.org header.b="iw7ExUZp" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=ed25519-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=josefsson.org; s=ed2303; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:Date: References:In-Reply-To:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description; bh=tbyTo8z+Btl7A1AibHJJwDS1ULqXp+eZWEShFYnghiQ=; t=1737661325; x=1738870925; b=iRRGwtRKxeNQOkquWcaLkhhtZ3P4Hccz6jDKg8NiXioYjaQzk+1S2iPBmpK45sQ1uzEKU+k5hoo u5h/sDKBbCQ==; DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=josefsson.org; s=rsa2303; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:Date: References:In-Reply-To:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description; bh=tbyTo8z+Btl7A1AibHJJwDS1ULqXp+eZWEShFYnghiQ=; t=1737661325; x=1738870925; b=iw7ExUZp26eIDvnGlGH2wA68cW7/nrNJQ7tUEyNuT3j9IA3mqQf5nxCipxNKHgoeMyjjgd7WFYv BNCHpOR9Y6t2RQKv8P8PTWapvKGysc1xMjnbYpESTDBFmEzfCl1/AjIyuUDsLN0slSGUejAdcG1rK 73h0WzDYB93VlYavYZ3Plo+sHfZrO1hIlCH2Jo83hUG9xYndZnEWMAvgoVf2iIMt2iGSMFwhaR+Lt NQxq+ad7/rKX/PIbiUEL6PJZll7bLpW04K9ABRlOfOp168BNCO6yJRR5/o5W/aolhbL82ARHHPbL4 Qr2055S+TgfBUGf63JUtVKmvl6uWo9haEym4J5sT5YyyymoW5U5MkD5maZ+eBdOHBtPpg2SA68G3C ri7s2kZLF2J/jLvuxQidN6RpqWNxu7SzksjEwErCngcS7gqADJNNuBFbOFQOLNk4t7C5BS0S0; Received: from h-178-174-130-130.a498.priv.bahnhof.se ([178.174.130.130]:54734 helo=kaka) by uggla.sjd.se with esmtpsa (TLS1.3) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (Exim 4.95) (envelope-from ) id 1tb35W-006AGu-G7; Thu, 23 Jan 2025 19:42:02 +0000 From: Simon Josefsson To: Celeste Liu Cc: mgorny@gentoo.org, distributions@lists.linux.dev Subject: Re: Standardizing NO_NETWORK and USE_SYSTEM_DEPS environment variables In-Reply-To: <20250123151916.476793-2-uwu@coelacanthus.name> (Celeste Liu's message of "Thu, 23 Jan 2025 23:19:17 +0800") References: <20250123151916.476793-2-uwu@coelacanthus.name> OpenPGP: id=B1D2BD1375BECB784CF4F8C4D73CF638C53C06BE; url=https://josefsson.org/key-20190320.txt X-Hashcash: 1:23:250123:distributions@lists.linux.dev::j3iztYghkuSKou+S:oiGp X-Hashcash: 1:23:250123:mgorny@gentoo.org::7KPsz50eWumT4z2n:0il/9 X-Hashcash: 1:23:250123:uwu@coelacanthus.name::9mJtklI1lawuHYoL:y6m4 Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2025 20:42:25 +0100 Message-ID: <87y0z1mi5a.fsf@josefsson.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Precedence: bulk X-Mailing-List: distributions@lists.linux.dev List-Id: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Celeste Liu writes: >> 1) NO_NETWORK -- if it's set to a non-empty value, it requests that >> programs don't access the (TCP/IP) network. >=20 > It may be better to be named NO_INTERNET. Network is a confusing word in = Linux=20 > world. They can refer to something from only Internet to any protocols in= =20 > network subsystem, even include AF_NETLINK... I have been asked why my ud= ev is=20 > broken when my program is in a netns many times. Systemd also have to inf= orm=20 > this point in their document of PrivateNetwork. So use more limited word= =20 > Internet to avoid this. You are right. While my initial reaction to NO_NETWORK was positive, I have realized that there are subtle issues that is really hard to resolve. I considered adding support for NO_NETWORK to GNU InetUtils but I am beginning to feel that even NO_NETWORK has the same critical concerns that USE_SYSTEM_DEPS has: What exactly should NO_NETWORK mean to a package? What can it assume and what MUST it fail on? =2D Can it use localhost IP connectivity? =2D TCP? =2D Multicast? =2D Can it rely on non-DNS /etc/hosts name resolution working? =2D Can it rely on /etc/services being able to lookup network service names? =2D Is it allowed to inspect routing table on the system? etc Disabling all of those functionality when NO_NETWORK is probably not what was intended, right? When doing self-checks for 'ftp' and 'ftpd' it makes sense to start your newly built ftpd and test interop it against your newly built ftp binary. I don't think the intention is to forbid this. /Simon --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQNoBAEWCAMQFiEEo8ychwudMQq61M8vUXIrCP5HRaIFAmeSm6EUHHNpbW9uQGpv c2Vmc3Nvbi5vcmfCHCYAmDMEXJLOtBYJKwYBBAHaRw8BAQdACIcrZIvhrxDBkK9f V+QlTmXxo2naObDuGtw58YaxlOu0JVNpbW9uIEpvc2Vmc3NvbiA8c2ltb25Aam9z ZWZzc29uLm9yZz6IlgQTFggAPgIbAwULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgBYh BLHSvRN1vst4TPT4xNc89jjFPAa+BQJl/YgIBQkLehFUAAoJENc89jjFPAa+CboA +wUa06RD5e5VTCxvSWtPS75Wq2qBeYGZnf0jvUMxa2n4AP4xkUeAPPnNuMsTm2fs FCDIGaEM2Yn6Vb2huzzT1Fw/BLgzBFySz4EWCSsGAQQB2kcPAQEHQOxTCIOaeXAx I2hIX4HK9bQTpNVei708oNr1Klm8qCGKiPUEGBYIACYCGwIWIQSx0r0Tdb7LeEz0 +MTXPPY4xTwGvgUCZf2IKwUJC3oQqgCBdiAEGRYIAB0WIQSjzJyHC50xCrrUzy9R cisI/kdFogUCXJLPgQAKCRBRcisI/kdFoqdMAQCgH45aseZgIrwKOvUOA9QfsmeE 8GZHYNuFHmM9FEQS6AD6A4x5aYvoY6lo98pgtw2HPDhmcCXFItjXCrV4A0GmJA4J ENc89jjFPAa+GcYA/26YQY05bLtnXiIjTiAzrGQrRXxTHPA8Av7TDFHvIetWAP9s HSoU8OfTwmTiEnGwLlsV7QJclZg3YNz/Ypcp9TqQBrg4BFySz2oSCisGAQQBl1UB BQEBB0AxlRumDW6nZY7A+VCfek9VpEx6PJmdJyYPt3lNHMd6HAMBCAeIfgQYFggA JgIbDBYhBLHSvRN1vst4TPT4xNc89jjFPAa+BQJl/YgwBQkLehDGAAoJENc89jjF PAa+phoA/jrDqIrl/55vUMBhIQv+TP635d2iCTEnyFmbUcP9+gh6APoDsXalVd2c OGxQtSC+TF8PkZMn1TLkJKAjVxr+xx40AgAKCRBRcisI/kdForTrAP93Z/L+Zfi/ CZVezQYY42lcFt8B76Z3aAJJWba4xoEsigD/ec9ltxS0FyjmfpYnp5833/Loy88J dr6gKEojtuezkQY= =b+Fo -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=--