From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on aws-us-west-2-korg-lkml-1.web.codeaurora.org Received: from bombadil.infradead.org (bombadil.infradead.org [198.137.202.133]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.lore.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2B918CCFA1A for ; Wed, 12 Nov 2025 13:21:49 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lists.infradead.org; s=bombadil.20210309; h=Sender: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:List-Subscribe:List-Help:List-Post: List-Archive:List-Unsubscribe:List-Id:In-Reply-To:References:To:From:Subject: Cc:Message-Id:Date:Mime-Version:Reply-To:Content-ID:Content-Description: Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID: List-Owner; bh=ykIHcqd7tZKaOY0waQ8tl1cGcXDvyt8gDu6SOM7V/4U=; b=DndGvGG9amrGRA U1Bb8pKKaACeJ8/9Ygh5MFWuNvGp3zprKyuhyxdCkLUA5UY3rrUoSjZyp449KTvlonjpgHn7VvI7G dgnYOiaWWZGxIlb9Aj2Wzac8jZ02rI2IQdxzTpmULYKdcnrXSDyjNMnKlog7i0I9pntzokg7Kb8hP XS7OitaVfgKqwx1ruXpinJK5I5T7w+ko+QyOUUqijFcVj9JqL3JHwOmgQNQxcQvZdzYslocsVSlQB y2U2QM//jke1XbVTIcOUDXgZTNvcj5z5oOgw6WbsYmQFw8rWiz0HUNuoAy15DiHl5Fo/wnZgW1yBg H11lssHunIrmhuGvE5fw==; Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=bombadil.infradead.org) by bombadil.infradead.org with esmtp (Exim 4.98.2 #2 (Red Hat Linux)) id 1vJAn5-00000008q34-0IUs; Wed, 12 Nov 2025 13:21:39 +0000 Received: from out-186.mta0.migadu.com ([91.218.175.186]) by bombadil.infradead.org with esmtps (Exim 4.98.2 #2 (Red Hat Linux)) id 1vJAn1-00000008q1y-2sB9 for linux-rockchip@lists.infradead.org; Wed, 12 Nov 2025 13:21:38 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cknow-tech.com; s=key1; t=1762953689; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=r0D2J+eI3PvSUY6f8Ua/F1VK1t8ze42IT7fidRI9eX4=; b=JUFZxqTResbyUvMBtZc6tUXxjNGE0hoV6iieqBZCBrlsFbC7uBj+7Lj0UfuHXm+dIs1eek c7qaQcKi/U3duCFJY/Ii9RINyh/te7BhMItgMas8L0t4BEIs1IbyHMcJRGWNEsVclDu7sm A4fNS9nGygCwRYADmsp7JtpL2jDoQnZ4dq5OUy63OW7Y9UENp6SKPJ2IZUuag9LfdXaWuL lFywOnTnaaj0qFBiIk1hAw5eOSOKeixMq5jVX/jZGWit/PfSnEij5Le2SSlHogHzyV8igr BJ6WxU2A1W4r/h3W9Tt+ZSACss2pl2w6kNj3Rx3TnL71CQ/hVbQKEUpBYQRHmw== Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2025 14:21:23 +0100 Message-Id: Cc: , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , Subject: Re: [PATCH v2] arm64: dts: rockchip: Turn all LEDs on at boot for Radxa boards X-Report-Abuse: Please report any abuse attempt to abuse@migadu.com and include these headers. From: "Diederik de Haas" To: "FUKAUMI Naoki" , "Quentin Schulz" , "Diederik de Haas" , "Dragan Simic" References: <20251111054112.55505-1-naoki@radxa.com> <516e919a-42af-8707-4e75-a808df8971fd@manjaro.org> <41275775-9e6e-9202-4c79-6140a56e41d5@manjaro.org> <572f341f-a5fa-4f1c-ad60-a5fe3e046d6d@cherry.de> <774C3AB9F17BAE47+14f8b8ba-ba78-410e-b44c-4d077585d05a@radxa.com> <1459ebad-c087-49ac-a316-14436fac4bc6@cherry.de> In-Reply-To: X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_OUT X-CRM114-Version: 20100106-BlameMichelson ( TRE 0.8.0 (BSD) ) MR-646709E3 X-CRM114-CacheID: sfid-20251112_052136_625821_C99255B3 X-CRM114-Status: GOOD ( 49.60 ) X-BeenThere: linux-rockchip@lists.infradead.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.34 Precedence: list List-Id: Upstream kernel work for Rockchip platforms List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: "Linux-rockchip" Errors-To: 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Subject: Re: [PATCH v2] arm64: dts: rockchip: Turn all LEDs on at boot for Radxa boards X-Report-Abuse: Please report any abuse attempt to abuse@migadu.com and include these headers. From: "Diederik de Haas" To: "FUKAUMI Naoki" , "Quentin Schulz" , "Diederik de Haas" , "Dragan Simic" References: <20251111054112.55505-1-naoki@radxa.com> <516e919a-42af-8707-4e75-a808df8971fd@manjaro.org> <41275775-9e6e-9202-4c79-6140a56e41d5@manjaro.org> <572f341f-a5fa-4f1c-ad60-a5fe3e046d6d@cherry.de> <774C3AB9F17BAE47+14f8b8ba-ba78-410e-b44c-4d077585d05a@radxa.com> <1459ebad-c087-49ac-a316-14436fac4bc6@cherry.de> In-Reply-To: X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_OUT Hi, On Wed Nov 12, 2025 at 12:36 PM CET, FUKAUMI Naoki wrote: > My goal is to minimize the DTS fragments=20 > (u-boot/arch/arm/dts/*-u-boot.dtsi) in U-Boot, consolidate them=20 > upstream, and improve clarity/visibility. Long story short: I was wrong. It was mostly Quentin's argument/reminder that the DT is about describing the hardware. I think Quentin's point about 'initial state' was right on point, certainly from my perspective and where my logic error came from. Cheers, Diederik > On 11/12/25 19:34, Quentin Schulz wrote: >> On 11/12/25 10:40 AM, Diederik de Haas wrote: >>> [You don't often get email from diederik@cknow-tech.com. Learn why=20 >>> this is important at https://aka.ms/LearnAboutSenderIdentification ] >>> >>> On Wed Nov 12, 2025 at 12:42 AM CET, FUKAUMI Naoki wrote: >>>> On 11/12/25 03:32, Quentin Schulz wrote: >>>>> On 11/11/25 5:14 PM, Dragan Simic wrote: >>>>>> On Tuesday, November 11, 2025 16:32 CET, FUKAUMI Naoki >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> On 11/11/25 23:46, Dragan Simic wrote: >>>>>>>> On Tuesday, November 11, 2025 14:07 CET, "Diederik de Haas" >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> On Tue Nov 11, 2025 at 6:41 AM CET, FUKAUMI Naoki wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Radxa's boards turn all LEDs on at boot(loader), but some boards >>>>>>>>>> don't have `default-state` property in Linux kernel tree but >>>>>>>>>> have it in U-Boot tree instead[1]. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> This patch adds `default-state =3D "on"` for (almost) all LEDs= =20 >>>>>>>>>> (with a >>>>>>>>>> few exceptions which should be "off" such as RGB LEDs on E25=20 >>>>>>>>>> and LAN/ >>>>>>>>>> WAN LEDs on E20C/E52C). >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'm missing the *why* these changes would be an improvement. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Personally, for both 'heartbeat' and 'netdev' triggers, I want=20 >>>>>>>>> them to >>>>>>>>> be off by default and once it gets a 'heartbeat' or a 'netdev' >>>>>>>>> trigger, THEN I want the LED to be on/blinking. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> That's a good question for Naoki.=C2=A0 My own preference would al= so >>>>>>>> be to have the device's power LED turned on by U-Boot as quickly >>>>>>>> as possible after supplying power to the board or turning it on >>>>>>>> by pressing the power button.=C2=A0 I'm actually not a big fan of >>>>>>>> having all the LEDs shining for a couple of seconds or so, which >>>>>>>> may actually look like some error condition to me. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Having all that in mind, I may suggest that just the U-Boot's >>>>>>>> behavior is changed to turn the power LEDs on only. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I can't quite explain it, but... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> - 1st (Power) LED >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The 1st (power) LED turns on automatically/immediately without=20 >>>>>>> software >>>>>>> intervention. (On some boards, this LED cannot be controlled by=20 >>>>>>> software >>>>>>> at all.) > > I'm not saying the DTS has anything about LEDs that can't be controlled= =20 > by software, nor am I trying to add such a thing to the DTS. > > I'm just pointing out that the power LED is always on right after=20 > power-up. This makes it useless for determining if the software is runnin= g. > >>>>>>> In DTS, this should be described using `default-state =3D "on"`. Th= e=20 >>>>>>> use >>>>>>> of the Linux-specific property `linux,default-trigger =3D "default-= =20 >>>>>>> on"` is >>>>>>> unsuitable for non-Linux environments. >>>>>>> >>=20 >> I think the wording in the binding can be understood two ways. >>=20 >> The binding says the following about the default-state property: >>=20 >> """ >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 The initial state of the LED. If the LED= is already on or off and=20 >> the >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 default-state property is set the to sam= e value, then no glitch=20 >> should be >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 produced where the LED momentarily turns= off (or on). The "keep"=20 >> setting >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 will keep the LED at whatever its curren= t state is, without=20 >> producing a >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 glitch. >> """ >>=20 >> I think the issue here is around the meaning of "initial state". I=20 >> believe Naoki is probably thinking about the **HW** initial state of the= =20 >> LED, which is whatever is the state of the LED without SW control. I=20 >> think Diederik is thinking about this being the state of the LED right= =20 >> when the SW takes over and configures the LED before the trigger is setu= p. >>=20 >> In the first interpretation, there's no need for an "improvement" for=20 >> the patches as they would just fix correctness of the DT wrt HW state at= =20 >> boot. >>=20 >> In the second interpretation, a change of this value must be justified= =20 >> as people will simply disagree forever and we could end up with people= =20 >> reverting other people's patches after each release. If it's just a=20 >> matter of taste, I believe the typical answer is keeping the status quo. >>=20 >> We should find a way to make this binding not up to interpretation. >>=20 >> Additionally, if the LED cannot be controlled on some boards, I don't=20 >> think it should be part of the DT. >>=20 >>>>>>> - 2nd (Heartbeat) LED >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The 2nd (heartbeat) LED can be controlled by software. It should=20 >>>>>>> be lit >>>>>>> up as quickly as possible to indicate that the very first software >>>>>>> (e.g., the bootloader) is running. >>>>>>> >>=20 >> My understanding is Naoki wants to use default-state =3D on, for the=20 >> bootloader to turn it on as soon as it takes over control of the LEDs. >>=20 >>>>>>> On Linux, usually this is used as `linux,default-trigger =3D=20 >>>>>>> "heartbeat"`. >>>>>>> It indicates that kernel is running (regardless of the `default-=20 >>>>>>> state` >>>>>>> setting), and its behavior can be modified in user space. >>>>>> >>>>>> As discussed already in the #linux-rockchip IRC channel, [1] perhaps >>>>>> the best option would be to have the power LEDs turned on as quickly >>>>>> upon powering on the board as possible, and to have U-Boot pulsate >>>>>> the heartbeat LEDs using the LED_BOOT feature.=C2=A0 In such a scena= rio, >>>>>> no other LEDs would be turned on early, and the LED-related DT parts >>>>>> specific to U-Boot would be migrated to the kernel DTs. >>>>>> >>>>>> [1] https://libera.catirclogs.org/linux-rockchip/2025-11-11#38997824= ; >>>>> >>>>> The LED_BOOT feature (guarded by the Kconfig symbol of the same=20 >>>>> name) in >>>>> U-Boot only applies if /options/u-boot/boot-led property is set. >>>> >>>> For the default state of the heartbeat LED, I'm thinking of using >>>> LED_BOOT (/options/u-boot/boot-led), but I'm concerned that this is >>>> U-Boot-specific. >>> >>> If U-Boot wants to use the heartbeat LED to signal the *bootloader* is >>> running, I guess that's fine. And if you want to make it solid or >>> blinking, that seems best discussed on the U-Boot ML. >>> >>=20 >> The solution may still involve configuring the Device Tree, and we're=20 >> trying to have U-Boot-specific changes to the Device Tree in U-Boot=20 >> source tree to a minimum. >>=20 >>> I still consider the bootloader and the kernel stages separate. >>=20 >> They do however share most of their Device Tree (for Rockchip at least)= =20 >> and the least (ideally no) changes we can have in U-Boot the better. >>=20 >>> And I haven't seen an argument why I should change *my* opinion on the >>> heartbeat and netdev triggers (default-state) wrt the kernel. >>> >>=20 >> Device Tree is not kernel specific as you said already. >>=20 >>> I don't think that what U-Boot does or doesn't do, should determine wha= t >>> the Linux kernel does or doesn't do. >>=20 >> It shouldn't, but (most of) the Device Tree is shared, so you cannot=20 >> just dismiss U-Boot behavior when talking about Linux behavior based on= =20 >> Device Tree interpretation. We may have a need for a bootloader-specific= =20 >> property. We have a Linux-specific one after all (linux,default-=20 >> trigger). Though... that does seem to be on the edge of what the DT is= =20 >> made for (description of the HW, not logic/policy). >>=20 >>> I have no plans to use another bootloader then U-Boot, but it's possibl= e >>> that people do, so what the Linux kernel does should be independent fro= m >>> what the/a specific bootloader does. > > Each software should be independent, but hardware (state) cannot be=20 > independent. > >> Barebox also uses upstream DT as far as I know and supports some Radxa= =20 >> products (Rock 5B/5T/..., CM3, Rock (RK3188), Rock 3A from the arch/arm/= =20 >> boards/radxa-* directories). Zephyr has support for RK3568, RK3588, and= =20 >> other SoCs, and uses upstream DT as well. >>=20 >> Again, we're talking about modifications of the Device Tree here, so=20 >> typically I would expect all consumers of that DT to be interpreting the= =20 >> properties the same way, except if you have OS-specific properties/nodes= =20 >> (think u-boot,config-compatible nodes, linux, prefixed properties,=20 >> bootph- properties, ...). >>=20 >>> And as I said before, *I* want LEDs with netdev and heartbeat triggers, >>> to be off (at the start, which is indeed the default value). > > If you are using U-Boot, heartbeat LED is already on by U-Boot, > e.g. > https://source.denx.de/u-boot/u-boot/-/blob/v2025.10/arch/arm/dts/rk358= 8s-rock-5a-u-boot.dtsi#L10-12 > > But it's not visible in DTS in Linux, > e.g. > https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux.git/tree= /arch/arm64/boot/dts/rockchip/rk3588s-rock-5a.dts?h=3Dv6.17#n55 > > I think this situation should be fixed. > > Best regards, > > -- > FUKAUMI Naoki > Radxa Computer (Shenzhen) Co., Ltd. > >>> I use the heartbeat trigger to: >>> 1) See the kernel has started (and has gotten to the point the heartbea= t >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 'infrastructure' has been set up >>> 2) Wait for the blinking to slow down as that (generally) means it's >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 pretty much done with the boot process and the SSH s= erver should >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 probably be running then, so I can login >>> 3) When the heartbeat LED is solid, that means the system has crashed >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 (f.e. due to overheating ...) >>> >>=20 >> If the *HW* default state of the LED is off and the default-state=20 >> property is off, then you won't be able to tell apart a completely=20 >> bricked board and one that is stuck somewhere between U-Boot proper and= =20 >> the Linux kernel taking over that LED. >>=20 >>> And also, if you're going to change/override other people's choices, a >>> motivation as to why would be 'nice'. >>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> As you know, default "default-state" is "off". >>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0 https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/= =20 >>>> linux.git/tree/Documentation/devicetree/bindings/leds/common.yaml?=20 >>>> h=3Dv6.17#n74 >>>> >>>> As far as I understand, there should not be any workarounds for specif= ic >>>> implementations. >>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0 https://lore.kernel.org/linux-rockchip/3389401.44csPzL39Z= @phil/ >>>> >>>> So removing `default-state =3D "off"` is acceptable, right? >>> >>> I don't see/understand the connection with 'workarounds for specific >>> implementations' with removing ``default-state =3D "off"``. >>> >>> IMO it's perfectly fine to remove ``default-state =3D "off"``, although >>> having it explicitly may be useful, especially if the commit that set >>> that property specified *why* it should be "off". >>> >>=20 >> The status property defaults to okay, and we do not want them to be=20 >> listed explicitly. Not sure if there's consensus on applying this to all= =20 >> properties which have defaults, across all subsystems. >>=20 >>> Relatedly, when a node does not have the 'default-state' property, I >>> would _assume_ the author wanted/intended it to be "off". Ideally it >>> would be described in the commit message, but that is optional. >>=20 >> The lack of a property doesn't necessarily mean it was forgotten, agreed= . >>=20 >>> But if that is changed, then it should be motivated *why*. >>> >>=20 >> Agreed. >>=20 >> Cheers, >> Quentin >>=20