From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on aws-us-west-2-korg-lkml-1.web.codeaurora.org Received: from mail.kernel.org (mail.kernel.org [198.145.29.99]) by smtp.lore.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FBA1C433EF for ; Thu, 30 Sep 2021 12:45:17 +0000 (UTC) Received: from vger.kernel.org (vger.kernel.org [23.128.96.18]) by mail.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0804F619E0 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 2021 12:45:17 +0000 (UTC) Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S1351043AbhI3Mq6 (ORCPT ); Thu, 30 Sep 2021 08:46:58 -0400 Received: from lindbergh.monkeyblade.net ([23.128.96.19]:38990 "EHLO lindbergh.monkeyblade.net" rhost-flags-OK-OK-OK-OK) by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S1350994AbhI3Mq4 (ORCPT ); Thu, 30 Sep 2021 08:46:56 -0400 Received: from mail-wr1-x436.google.com (mail-wr1-x436.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::436]) by lindbergh.monkeyblade.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 10503C06176D for ; Thu, 30 Sep 2021 05:45:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr1-x436.google.com with SMTP id t8so9897899wri.1 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 2021 05:45:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=linaro.org; s=google; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-disposition:content-transfer-encoding:in-reply-to; bh=FR0+kEOcKlq7l4rpUaA/sQX17u3kFeNcfk9lelXlWEg=; b=U5wgRFM2oZNKQCdACVEnN/PY1pazGShIczlxnlmZx77O+N263dqplEctt/sQaZHpOD hlEcsVqUiTyndbmwPYlr8m3ythPO1FonbuXbGLTb7KuQG3Ck0udU2uwoxhTad5ZQr4NP UdukK7mP5VsgGx+KI0lVPyb5Xm7Uzc8x0kF4I9hpcPCkn7eAnxkWjNN9bZRgOFBGs1QM zenKRBko2C2y0uoROOW+rGj6WIB1ZPFumOLUC7a2TYFR9DhJmNxDO/wELyWA6VIqhzLp ZQ1rXUpnhN/7DeYdfeTKevHyMD4bW3NNzNCQl4UpVd22FMfamW1VNwGN9l/hQxtrxUpe FArQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references :mime-version:content-disposition:content-transfer-encoding :in-reply-to; bh=FR0+kEOcKlq7l4rpUaA/sQX17u3kFeNcfk9lelXlWEg=; b=ZoOw2hkH4SePf1MkWuDvNZ3PZ/Kx9sf6aQW7q/3uzMd64y26Ro5MZTSLwPM+ZbaHpK xRC3fUGXsCIv3TQKmgCF7+z7BasIrf7CEaF2jA55l3ULMfEByknX6NNFz8fbL2m7g3BQ pO3MLYTDZT/sS3lTh6pYtTvEi4c/B4GNrNZdB54x8P0ZgPYuiPDU45iuoRs5ZQaVz9rb VsfCV65WMusp0AhMvsiahJ47JxzVh5hctyVha91jpQeImsKtX47WGSrZ/gg/2zVaXAjH zHJ1IUnM6Wv5wgcqyqfroSxoC3+LdhqDdVWrzn778h+fLXFgJr0M15PIVPaWZwCCPdu3 P2Jw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530XbwXNYdQVuu4c0dn3MV0qbmsjXu3Ly0qIkdWOF0kPlpAN70Nu qr/KZz+AAB7xVrO0eZeFH2A6yA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw7iEWw4B+SZSgxwLpkc1ZayA38d1mLm4WfjWyxrEfNNMijUBsKT774geAQAwuuaPz5baAPYw== X-Received: by 2002:a5d:400b:: with SMTP id n11mr6039318wrp.317.1633005912605; Thu, 30 Sep 2021 05:45:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from google.com ([95.148.6.233]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id g1sm5214172wmk.2.2021.09.30.05.45.11 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Thu, 30 Sep 2021 05:45:12 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 13:45:10 +0100 From: Lee Jones To: Tomasz Figa Cc: Krzysztof Kozlowski , Will McVicker , Russell King , Catalin Marinas , Will Deacon , Michael Turquette , Stephen Boyd , Sylwester Nawrocki , Chanwoo Choi , Linus Walleij , Alessandro Zummo , Alexandre Belloni , John Stultz , Thomas Gleixner , Geert Uytterhoeven , Saravana Kannan , "Cc: Android Kernel" , Linux ARM , Linux Kernel Mailing List , linux-samsung-soc , linux-clk , "open list:GPIO SUBSYSTEM" , linux-rtc@vger.kernel.org, Arnd Bergmann , Olof Johansson Subject: Re: [PATCH v2 00/12] arm64: Kconfig: Update ARCH_EXYNOS select configs Message-ID: References: <20210928235635.1348330-1-willmcvicker@google.com> <7766faf8-2dd1-6525-3b9a-8ba790c29cff@canonical.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: Precedence: bulk List-ID: X-Mailing-List: linux-clk@vger.kernel.org On Thu, 30 Sep 2021, Tomasz Figa wrote: > 2021年9月30日(木) 20:51 Lee Jones : > > > > On Thu, 30 Sep 2021, Tomasz Figa wrote: > > > > > 2021年9月30日(木) 18:23 Lee Jones : > > > > > > > > I've taken the liberty of cherry-picking some of the points you have > > > > reiteratted a few times. Hopefully I can help to address them > > > > adequently. > > > > > > > > On Thu, 30 Sep 2021, Krzysztof Kozlowski wrote: > > > > > Reminder: these are essential drivers and all Exynos platforms must have > > > > > them as built-in (at least till someone really tests this on multiple > > > > > setups). > > > > > > > > > Therefore I don't agree with calling it a "problem" that we select > > > > > *necessary* drivers for supported platforms. It's by design - supported > > > > > platforms should receive them without ability to remove. > > > > > > > > > The selected drivers are essential for supported platforms. > > > > > > > > SoC specific drivers are only essential/necessary/required in > > > > images designed to execute solely on a platform that requires them. > > > > For a kernel image which is designed to be generic i.e. one that has > > > > the ability to boot on vast array of platforms, the drivers simply > > > > have to be *available*. > > > > > > > > Forcing all H/W drivers that are only *potentially* utilised on *some* > > > > platforms as core binary built-ins doesn't make any technical sense. > > > > The two most important issues this causes are image size and a lack of > > > > configurability/flexibility relating to real-world application i.e. > > > > the one issue we already agreed upon; H/W or features that are too > > > > new (pre-release). > > > > > > > > Bloating a generic kernel with potentially hundreds of unnecessary > > > > drivers that will never be executed in the vast majority of instances > > > > doesn't achieve anything. If we have a kernel image that has the > > > > ability to boot on 10's of architectures which have 10's of platforms > > > > each, that's a whole host of unused/wasted executable space. > > > > > > > > In order for vendors to work more closely with upstream, they need the > > > > ability to over-ride a *few* drivers to supplement them with some > > > > functionality which they believe provides them with a competitive edge > > > > (I think you called this "value-add" before) prior to the release of a > > > > device. This is a requirement that cannot be worked around. > > > > > > [Chiming in as a clock driver sub-maintainer and someone who spent a > > > non-insignificant part of his life on SoC driver bring-up - not as a > > > Google employee.] > > > > > > I'd argue that the proper way for them to achieve it would be to > > > extend the upstream frameworks and/or existing drivers with > > > appropriate APIs to allow their downstream modules to plug into what's > > > already available upstream. > > > > Is that the same as exporting symbols to framework APIs? > > > > Since this is already a method GKI uses to allow external modules to > > interact with the core kernel/frameworks. However, it's not possible > > to upstream these without an upstream user for each one. > > Not necessary the core frameworks, could also be changing the ways the > existing drivers register to allow additional drivers to extend the > functionality rather than completely overwrite them. It's really hard > to tell what the right way would be without knowing the exact things > they find missing in the upstream drivers. As for upstream users, this > is exactly the point - upstream is a bidirectional effort, one takes > from it and should contribute things back. > > Generally, the subsystems being mentioned here are so basic (clock, > pinctrl, rtc), that I really can't imagine what kind of rocket science > one might want to hide for competitive reasons... If it's for an > entire SoC, I wonder why Intel and AMD don't have similar concerns and > contribute support for their newest hardware far before the release. I don't have visibility into the driver-overrides I'm afraid. I do know that code-space can be a problem though. So any way we can make the core binary smaller (i.e. remove anything that can be built as a module) will have a positive effect. -- Lee Jones [李琼斯] Senior Technical Lead - Developer Services Linaro.org │ Open source software for Arm SoCs Follow Linaro: Facebook | Twitter | Blog From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on aws-us-west-2-korg-lkml-1.web.codeaurora.org Received: from mail.kernel.org (mail.kernel.org [198.145.29.99]) by smtp.lore.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 063D7C433EF for ; Thu, 30 Sep 2021 12:47:39 +0000 (UTC) Received: from bombadil.infradead.org (bombadil.infradead.org [198.137.202.133]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C28EE617E5 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 2021 12:47:38 +0000 (UTC) DMARC-Filter: OpenDMARC Filter v1.4.1 mail.kernel.org C28EE617E5 Authentication-Results: mail.kernel.org; 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2002:a5d:400b:: with SMTP id n11mr6039318wrp.317.1633005912605; Thu, 30 Sep 2021 05:45:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from google.com ([95.148.6.233]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id g1sm5214172wmk.2.2021.09.30.05.45.11 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Thu, 30 Sep 2021 05:45:12 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 13:45:10 +0100 From: Lee Jones To: Tomasz Figa Cc: Krzysztof Kozlowski , Will McVicker , Russell King , Catalin Marinas , Will Deacon , Michael Turquette , Stephen Boyd , Sylwester Nawrocki , Chanwoo Choi , Linus Walleij , Alessandro Zummo , Alexandre Belloni , John Stultz , Thomas Gleixner , Geert Uytterhoeven , Saravana Kannan , "Cc: Android Kernel" , Linux ARM , Linux Kernel Mailing List , linux-samsung-soc , linux-clk , "open list:GPIO SUBSYSTEM" , linux-rtc@vger.kernel.org, Arnd Bergmann , Olof Johansson Subject: Re: [PATCH v2 00/12] arm64: Kconfig: Update ARCH_EXYNOS select configs Message-ID: References: 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