From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: by 2002:a17:504:c7cb:b0:1be7:c013:c773 with SMTP id cj11csp318705njb; Thu, 27 Jun 2024 09:46:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=2; AJvYcCVF4liHIF+MPQ9+orXRn6xevD9VhDlD0FoEHABZKeQl0ZUAT9/56AHNGGPf0XdfsTQFuOVUMJK088QNLkrz9XQ0SL370q7O X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGtuFb+NDx0/oUwcW9M/jAGercMgGHI8e0NDrErj8Faph7mAgsjZE9Kx+YKakBmO1m4thtz X-Received: by 2002:a5d:6a42:0:b0:366:d5ea:6098 with SMTP id ffacd0b85a97d-366e94d86b8mr8915426f8f.3.1719506807386; Thu, 27 Jun 2024 09:46:47 -0700 (PDT) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; t=1719506807; cv=none; d=google.com; s=arc-20160816; b=pUW6WkBNaOSuyUhiIV+PTypcU81jpjJESCZBGd/I4+mYFzc2foqJZgjVUqSY/Uj+6k GEv8Hk8Uf8sd5qvruZ8PzglBcAagaYTJqFHqo1gOK19QeFQc8vryg2zZb0mhu7I0cwVD KbxuRdtlMgecl93rCqcVye4j5ZEjed6tbY/SeTi+k991TrYXE31BeH8aSbO7XYHt4ddO w3V9SJO40/9h1vRC5JBxpuEcIuSg2DROJb0GZ2j+bV3udiOFlZB/VUqUpcR0H+9nJT35 8/XZba5JFkRdMba0Em1vIjIeS2oUL6xXUGJkio0wIDBZ7DnyKm8PqDX2beb1iEOsZh5x d7lg== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=arc-20160816; h=user-agent:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding :content-disposition:mime-version:references:message-id:subject:cc :to:from:date:dkim-signature; bh=odkanXfrPw63vz4sKB+Q4JKAVIo0yPDND0DCfJzeHQw=; fh=PQLPyn1C4Gc1ndsw5Dwmh4k2pvwcsm2hWG5AArFPXMk=; b=YWTfCLJViIxhyFIgu2e8ExUirDk/eZBeBiUWuM8rIyEraFCQwZju2k3/YdXD04MYZp 726uKCPNygDi+AZ1DvrVCO9OaR+lZyEUN28npCEQzO+qYYtbGZSNP3UOiyb6y4BlXABA CG24no+fmJLE7Z9LMyqmuN/nb7KRNAr9Tnps4nlLPGs4KPfJLwxn8QOswatEozKK3WKG HNLjwdw8sKmwETIuG6ZbhmVFxJoz2wMFxAwb4gwCBa2awlRI4ewhRT34Pd2S9PrtNQes T8toc3GYj9z8vypWtz7tLw/tttkUCOZJq7J0HLZ1BnqB7uVPdF+qTL3Qg3QxovI+TCYB cqZw==; dara=google.com ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@treblig.org header.s=bytemarkmx header.b=Poekx9w2; spf=pass (google.com: domain of dg@treblig.org designates 2a00:1098:5b::1 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=dg@treblig.org; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=treblig.org Return-Path: Received: from mx.treblig.org (mx.treblig.org. [2a00:1098:5b::1]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id ffacd0b85a97d-3674358ad1dsi1051371f8f.407.2024.06.27.09.46.46 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Thu, 27 Jun 2024 09:46:46 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of dg@treblig.org designates 2a00:1098:5b::1 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1098:5b::1; Authentication-Results: mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@treblig.org header.s=bytemarkmx header.b=Poekx9w2; spf=pass (google.com: domain of dg@treblig.org designates 2a00:1098:5b::1 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=dg@treblig.org; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=treblig.org DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=treblig.org ; s=bytemarkmx; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:Subject:From:Date:From :Subject; bh=odkanXfrPw63vz4sKB+Q4JKAVIo0yPDND0DCfJzeHQw=; b=Poekx9w2Vy/ZjfL4 xwNU9VMr3n00i4Hzx7sGBDkrN4kEcKK4ixcFs3Nv52TUS0Zc8SPx3FcPBs4T5d5my9iluQ8InzjAw f/tsMF/GWGhSKF6o1KR/J+48GuB02fXxMN6cb5BItQ1olGKw8ZinmVGLicZ1/2ISSGf/2WND63BQh 7tkhiQ3YCH8jSK1zQ4aPMa5zO0KGrTNTkmBoDfPsxAM3h7k+8P7aJX1KH/+ue7tLGwmo0Rs+tc8mB j5mxGFF/c+Hv++K0HeGRo3iJSTwaHfpxA/fbaYQSwrPx+cJ3+rn9sKsUG4pjTiF+sRgRXplK9GEFm gYZcJ8m7JxG/fa/hXw==; Received: from dg by mx.treblig.org with local (Exim 4.96) (envelope-from ) id 1sMsGj-008iwA-0R; Thu, 27 Jun 2024 16:46:45 +0000 Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2024 16:46:45 +0000 From: "Dr. David Alan Gilbert" To: Markus Armbruster Cc: Philippe =?iso-8859-1?Q?Mathieu-Daud=E9?= , Daniel =?iso-8859-1?Q?P=2E_Berrang=E9?= , Thomas Huth , qemu-devel@nongnu.org, Cornelia Huck , David Hildenbrand , Alex =?iso-8859-1?Q?Benn=E9e?= , Christian Borntraeger , qemu-s390x@nongnu.org, devel@lists.libvirt.org, Eric Farman , Ilya Leoshkevich , Richard Henderson , Eric Blake , Halil Pasic , Anton Johansson , qemu-arm Subject: Re: [PATCH 0/4] hw/s390x: Alias @dump-skeys -> @dump-s390-skey and deprecate Message-ID: References: <20240530074544.25444-1-philmd@linaro.org> <87y17lcni7.fsf@pond.sub.org> <875xup81u9.fsf@pond.sub.org> <87zfrts7a3.fsf@pond.sub.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <87zfrts7a3.fsf@pond.sub.org> X-Chocolate: 70 percent or better cocoa solids preferably X-Operating-System: Linux/6.1.0-21-amd64 (x86_64) X-Uptime: 16:46:03 up 50 days, 4:00, 1 user, load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00 User-Agent: Mutt/2.2.12 (2023-09-09) X-TUID: DFrO7BoNwppi * Markus Armbruster (armbru@redhat.com) wrote: > "Dr. David Alan Gilbert" writes: > > > * Markus Armbruster (armbru@redhat.com) wrote: > >> Philippe Mathieu-Daudé writes: > >> > >> > Hi Daniel, Dave, Markus & Thomas. > >> > > >> > On 4/6/24 06:58, Markus Armbruster wrote: > >> >> "Dr. David Alan Gilbert" writes: > >> >>> * Daniel P. Berrangé (berrange@redhat.com) wrote: > >> >>>> On Fri, May 31, 2024 at 06:47:45AM +0200, Thomas Huth wrote: > >> >>>>> On 30/05/2024 09.45, Philippe Mathieu-Daudé wrote: > >> >>>>>> We are trying to unify all qemu-system-FOO to a single binary. > >> >>>>>> In order to do that we need to remove QAPI target specific code. > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> @dump-skeys is only available on qemu-system-s390x. This series > >> >>>>>> rename it as @dump-s390-skey, making it available on other > >> >>>>>> binaries. We take care of backward compatibility via deprecation. > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> Philippe Mathieu-Daudé (4): > >> >>>>>> hw/s390x: Introduce the @dump-s390-skeys QMP command > >> >>>>>> hw/s390x: Introduce the 'dump_s390_skeys' HMP command > >> >>>>>> hw/s390x: Deprecate the HMP 'dump_skeys' command > >> >>>>>> hw/s390x: Deprecate the QMP @dump-skeys command > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> Why do we have to rename the command? Just for the sake of it? I think > >> >>>>> renaming HMP commands is maybe ok, but breaking the API in QMP is something > >> >>>>> you should consider twice. > >> > > >> > I'm looking at how to include this command in the new "single binary". > >> > > >> > Markus explained in an earlier series, just expanding this command as > >> > stub to targets that don't implement it is not backward compatible and > >> > breaks QMP introspection. Currently on s390x we get a result, on other > >> > targets the command doesn't exist. If we add a stubs, then other targets > >> > return something (even if it is an empty list), confusing management > >> > interface. > >> > >> Loss of introspection precision is a concern, not a hard "no". > >> > >> We weigh all the concerns, and pick a solution we hate the least :) > >> > >> > So this approach use to deprecate process to include a new command > >> > which behaves differently on non-s390x targets. > >> > > >> > If we don't care for this particular case, better. However I'd still > >> > like to discuss this approach for other target-specific commands. > >> > > >> >> PRO rename: the command's tie to S390 is them immediately obvious, which > >> >> may be useful when the command becomes available in qemu-systems capable > >> >> of running other targets. > >> >> > >> >> CON rename: users need to adapt. > >> >> > >> >> What are the users? Not libvirt, as far as I can tell. > >> > > >> > Years ago we said, "all HMP must be based on QMP". > >> > >> In practice, it's closer to "HMP must be base on QMP when the > >> functionality does or should exist in QMP." > >> > >> > Now we realize HMP > >> > became stable because QMP-exposed, although not consumed externally... > >> > >> I'm afraid I didn't get this part. > >> > >> > Does the concept of "internal QMP commands" makes sense for HMP debug > >> > ones? (Looking at a way to not expose them). We could use the "x-" > >> > prefix to not care about stable / backward compat, but what is the point > >> > of exposing to QMP commands that will never be accessed there? > >> > > >> >>>> That was going to be my question too. Seems like its possible to simply > >> >>>> stub out the existing command for other targets. > >> >> > >> >> That's going to happen whether we rename the commands or not. > >> >> > >> >>> Are these commands really supposed to be stable, or are they just debug > >> >>> commands? If they are debug, then add the x- and don't worry too much. > >> > > >> > OK. > >> > > >> >> docs/devel/qapi-code-gen.rst: > >> >> > >> >> Names beginning with ``x-`` used to signify "experimental". This > >> >> convention has been replaced by special feature "unstable". > >> >> > >> >> Feature "unstable" is what makes something unstable, and is what > >> >> machines should check. > >> > > >> > What I mentioned earlier could be 'Feature "internal" or "debug"'. > >> > >> What's the difference to "unstable"? > > > > It should be clear *why* something is marked x- - something that's > > marked 'x-' because the feature is still in development is expected to shake > > out at some point, and the interface designed so it can. > > (and at some point the developer should get a prod to be asked whethere the > > x- can be removed). > > That's different from it permenantly being x- because it's expected to > > change as the needs of the people debugging change. > > When you add special feature 'unstable', the tooling insists you cover > it in the doc comment. Review should then ensure the doc comment > explains why it is unstable. Examples: > > # @unstable: Member @x-perf is experimental. > > # @unstable: This command is meant for debugging. OK, that makes some sense. Dave > > Dave > > > >> >> An "x-" prefix may still be useful for humans. Machines should *not* > >> >> key on the prefix. It's unreliable anyway: InputBarrierProperties > >> >> member @x-origin is stable despite it's name. Renames to gain or lose > >> >> the prefix may or may not be worth the bother. > >> > > >> > Could follow the rules and be renamed as "origin-coordinate-x". > >> > >> I don't think it's worth the trouble. The "x-" prefix is now strictly > >> for humans, and humans can figure out what the x- in @x-origin, > >> @y-origin means. > >> > >> [...] > >> > -- -----Open up your eyes, open up your mind, open up your code ------- / Dr. David Alan Gilbert | Running GNU/Linux | Happy \ \ dave @ treblig.org | | In Hex / \ _________________________|_____ http://www.treblig.org |_______/