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Thu, 02 Oct 2025 09:45:43 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2025 09:45:40 -0700 From: Deepak Gupta To: Florian Weimer Cc: Charles Mirabile , pjw@kernel.org, Liam.Howlett@oracle.com, a.hindborg@kernel.org, akpm@linux-foundation.org, alex.gaynor@gmail.com, alexghiti@rivosinc.com, aliceryhl@google.com, alistair.francis@wdc.com, andybnac@gmail.com, aou@eecs.berkeley.edu, arnd@arndb.de, atishp@rivosinc.com, bjorn3_gh@protonmail.com, boqun.feng@gmail.com, bp@alien8.de, brauner@kernel.org, broonie@kernel.org, charlie@rivosinc.com, cleger@rivosinc.com, conor+dt@kernel.org, conor@kernel.org, corbet@lwn.net, dave.hansen@linux.intel.com, david@redhat.com, devicetree@vger.kernel.org, ebiederm@xmission.com, evan@rivosinc.com, gary@garyguo.net, hpa@zytor.com, jannh@google.com, jim.shu@sifive.com, kees@kernel.org, kito.cheng@sifive.com, krzk+dt@kernel.org, linux-arch@vger.kernel.org, linux-doc@vger.kernel.org, linux-fsdevel@vger.kernel.org, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, linux-kselftest@vger.kernel.org, linux-mm@kvack.org, linux-riscv@lists.infradead.org, lorenzo.stoakes@oracle.com, lossin@kernel.org, mingo@redhat.com, ojeda@kernel.org, oleg@redhat.com, palmer@dabbelt.com, paul.walmsley@sifive.com, peterz@infradead.org, richard.henderson@linaro.org, rick.p.edgecombe@intel.com, robh@kernel.org, rust-for-linux@vger.kernel.org, samitolvanen@google.com, shuah@kernel.org, tglx@linutronix.de, tmgross@umich.edu, vbabka@suse.cz, x86@kernel.org, zong.li@sifive.com Subject: Re: [PATCH v19 00/27] riscv control-flow integrity for usermode Message-ID: References: <20250926192919.349578-1-cmirabil@redhat.com> Precedence: bulk X-Mailing-List: linux-arch@vger.kernel.org List-Id: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: On Thu, Oct 02, 2025 at 01:45:48PM +0200, Florian Weimer wrote: >* Deepak Gupta: > >> On Tue, Sep 30, 2025 at 11:20:32AM +0200, Florian Weimer wrote: >>>* Deepak Gupta: >>> >>>> In case of shadow stack, it similar situation. If enabled compiler >>>> decides to insert sspush and sspopchk. They necessarily won't be >>>> prologue or epilogue but somewhere in function body as deemed fit by >>>> compiler, thus increasing the complexity of runtime patching. >>>> >>>> More so, here are wishing for kernel to do this patching for usermode >>>> vDSO when there is no guarantee of such of rest of usermode (which if >>>> was compiled with shadow stack would have faulted before vDSO's >>>> sspush/sspopchk if ran on pre-zimop hardware) >>> >>>I think this capability is desirable so that you can use a distribution >>>kernel during CFI userspace bringup. >> >> I didn't get it, can you elaborate more. >> >> Why having kernel carry two vDSO (one with shadow stack and one without) would >> be required to for CFI userspace bringup? >> >> If Distro is compiling for RVA23 CONFIG_RISCV_USERCFI has to be selected yes, >> kernel can have vDSO with shadow stack. Distro can light this option only when >> its compiling entire distro for RVA23. > >I think it boils down to whether you want CFI bringup contributions from >people who do not want to or cannot build their own custom RVA23 >kernels. How will they contribute to CFI bringup without having a CFI compiled usersapce? If their userspace is compiled with shadow stack instructions and they can't take this userspace to old hardware else it'll start faulting as soon as control is given to userspace (first sspush or sspopcheck in userspace). > >Another use case would be running container images with CFI on a >distribution kernel which supports pre-RVA23 hardware. Container image with CFI will have glibc and ld (and all other userspace) also compiled with shadow stack instructions in it. As soon as you take this container image to a pre-RVA23 hardware, you won't even reach vDSO. It'll break much before that, unless kernel is taking a trap on all sspush/sspopchk instructions in prologue/epilogue of functions in userspace (glibc, ld, etc) > >Thanks, >Florian > From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on aws-us-west-2-korg-lkml-1.web.codeaurora.org Received: from bombadil.infradead.org (bombadil.infradead.org [198.137.202.133]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.lore.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CFCB2CAC5B8 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 2025 16:45:57 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lists.infradead.org; s=bombadil.20210309; h=Sender:Content-Type: Content-Transfer-Encoding:List-Subscribe:List-Help:List-Post:List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe:List-Id:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:References:Message-ID: Subject:Cc:To:From:Date:Reply-To:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date: Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Owner; 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Thu, 02 Oct 2025 09:45:43 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2025 09:45:40 -0700 From: Deepak Gupta To: Florian Weimer Cc: Charles Mirabile , pjw@kernel.org, Liam.Howlett@oracle.com, a.hindborg@kernel.org, akpm@linux-foundation.org, alex.gaynor@gmail.com, alexghiti@rivosinc.com, aliceryhl@google.com, alistair.francis@wdc.com, andybnac@gmail.com, aou@eecs.berkeley.edu, arnd@arndb.de, atishp@rivosinc.com, bjorn3_gh@protonmail.com, boqun.feng@gmail.com, bp@alien8.de, brauner@kernel.org, broonie@kernel.org, charlie@rivosinc.com, cleger@rivosinc.com, conor+dt@kernel.org, conor@kernel.org, corbet@lwn.net, dave.hansen@linux.intel.com, david@redhat.com, devicetree@vger.kernel.org, ebiederm@xmission.com, evan@rivosinc.com, gary@garyguo.net, hpa@zytor.com, jannh@google.com, jim.shu@sifive.com, kees@kernel.org, kito.cheng@sifive.com, krzk+dt@kernel.org, linux-arch@vger.kernel.org, linux-doc@vger.kernel.org, linux-fsdevel@vger.kernel.org, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, linux-kselftest@vger.kernel.org, linux-mm@kvack.org, linux-riscv@lists.infradead.org, lorenzo.stoakes@oracle.com, lossin@kernel.org, mingo@redhat.com, ojeda@kernel.org, oleg@redhat.com, palmer@dabbelt.com, paul.walmsley@sifive.com, peterz@infradead.org, richard.henderson@linaro.org, rick.p.edgecombe@intel.com, robh@kernel.org, rust-for-linux@vger.kernel.org, samitolvanen@google.com, shuah@kernel.org, tglx@linutronix.de, tmgross@umich.edu, vbabka@suse.cz, x86@kernel.org, zong.li@sifive.com Subject: Re: [PATCH v19 00/27] riscv control-flow integrity for usermode Message-ID: References: <20250926192919.349578-1-cmirabil@redhat.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-CRM114-Version: 20100106-BlameMichelson ( TRE 0.8.0 (BSD) ) MR-646709E3 X-CRM114-CacheID: sfid-20251002_094545_396029_D5A01A43 X-CRM114-Status: GOOD ( 12.88 ) X-BeenThere: linux-riscv@lists.infradead.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.34 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed" Sender: "linux-riscv" Errors-To: linux-riscv-bounces+linux-riscv=archiver.kernel.org@lists.infradead.org On Thu, Oct 02, 2025 at 01:45:48PM +0200, Florian Weimer wrote: >* Deepak Gupta: > >> On Tue, Sep 30, 2025 at 11:20:32AM +0200, Florian Weimer wrote: >>>* Deepak Gupta: >>> >>>> In case of shadow stack, it similar situation. If enabled compiler >>>> decides to insert sspush and sspopchk. They necessarily won't be >>>> prologue or epilogue but somewhere in function body as deemed fit by >>>> compiler, thus increasing the complexity of runtime patching. >>>> >>>> More so, here are wishing for kernel to do this patching for usermode >>>> vDSO when there is no guarantee of such of rest of usermode (which if >>>> was compiled with shadow stack would have faulted before vDSO's >>>> sspush/sspopchk if ran on pre-zimop hardware) >>> >>>I think this capability is desirable so that you can use a distribution >>>kernel during CFI userspace bringup. >> >> I didn't get it, can you elaborate more. >> >> Why having kernel carry two vDSO (one with shadow stack and one without) would >> be required to for CFI userspace bringup? >> >> If Distro is compiling for RVA23 CONFIG_RISCV_USERCFI has to be selected yes, >> kernel can have vDSO with shadow stack. Distro can light this option only when >> its compiling entire distro for RVA23. > >I think it boils down to whether you want CFI bringup contributions from >people who do not want to or cannot build their own custom RVA23 >kernels. How will they contribute to CFI bringup without having a CFI compiled usersapce? If their userspace is compiled with shadow stack instructions and they can't take this userspace to old hardware else it'll start faulting as soon as control is given to userspace (first sspush or sspopcheck in userspace). > >Another use case would be running container images with CFI on a >distribution kernel which supports pre-RVA23 hardware. Container image with CFI will have glibc and ld (and all other userspace) also compiled with shadow stack instructions in it. As soon as you take this container image to a pre-RVA23 hardware, you won't even reach vDSO. It'll break much before that, unless kernel is taking a trap on all sspush/sspopchk instructions in prologue/epilogue of functions in userspace (glibc, ld, etc) > >Thanks, >Florian > _______________________________________________ linux-riscv mailing list linux-riscv@lists.infradead.org http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-riscv