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From: Chao Gao <chao.gao@intel.com>
To: Dave Hansen <dave.hansen@intel.com>
Cc: Vishal Annapurve <vannapurve@google.com>,
	"Reshetova, Elena" <elena.reshetova@intel.com>,
	"linux-coco@lists.linux.dev" <linux-coco@lists.linux.dev>,
	"linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org" <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>,
	"x86@kernel.org" <x86@kernel.org>,
	"Chatre, Reinette" <reinette.chatre@intel.com>,
	"Weiny, Ira" <ira.weiny@intel.com>,
	"Huang, Kai" <kai.huang@intel.com>,
	"Williams, Dan J" <dan.j.williams@intel.com>,
	"yilun.xu@linux.intel.com" <yilun.xu@linux.intel.com>,
	"sagis@google.com" <sagis@google.com>,
	"paulmck@kernel.org" <paulmck@kernel.org>,
	"nik.borisov@suse.com" <nik.borisov@suse.com>,
	Borislav Petkov <bp@alien8.de>,
	Dave Hansen <dave.hansen@linux.intel.com>,
	"H. Peter Anvin" <hpa@zytor.com>, Ingo Molnar <mingo@redhat.com>,
	"Kirill A. Shutemov" <kas@kernel.org>,
	Paolo Bonzini <pbonzini@redhat.com>,
	"Edgecombe, Rick P" <rick.p.edgecombe@intel.com>,
	Thomas Gleixner <tglx@linutronix.de>
Subject: Re: [PATCH v2 00/21] Runtime TDX Module update support
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2025 15:43:11 +0800	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <aPsuD2fbYwCccgNi@intel.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <aad8ae43-a7bd-42b2-9452-2bdee82bf0d8@intel.com>

>One thing I don't think I've heard anyone be worried about is how timely
>the update process is. So how about this: Updates wait for any existing
>builds to complete. But, new builds wait for updates. That can be done
>with a single rwsem:
>
>struct rw_semaphore update_rwsem;
>
>tdx_td_init()
>{
>	...
>+	down_read_interruptible(&update_rwsem);
>	kvm_tdx->state = TD_STATE_INITIALIZED;
>
>tdx_td_finalize()
>{
>	...
>+	up_read(&update_rwsem);
>	kvm_tdx->state = TD_STATE_RUNNABLE;
>
>A module update does:
>
>	down_write_interruptible(&update_rwsem);
>	do_actual_update();
>	up_write(&update_rwsem);
>
>There would be no corruption issues, no erroring out of the build
>process, and no punting to userspace to ensure forward progress.
>
>The big downside is that both the build process and update process can
>appear to hang for a long time. It'll also be a bit annoying to ensure
>that there are up_read(&update_rwsem)'s if the kvm_tdx object gets torn
>down during a build.
>
>But the massive upside is that there's no new ABI and all the
>consistency and forward progress guarantees are in the kernel. If we
>want new ABIs around it that give O_NONBLOCK semantics to build or
>update, that can be added on after the fact.
>
>Plus, if userspace *WANTS* to coordinate the whole shebang, they're free
>to. They'd never see long hangs because they would be coordinating.
>
>Thoughts?

Hi Dave,

Thanks for this summary and suggestion.

Beyond "the kvm_tdx object gets torn down during a build," I see two potential
issues:

1. TD Build and TDX migration aren't purely kernel processes -- they span multiple
   KVM ioctls. Holding a read-write lock throughout the entire process would
   require exiting to userspace while the lock is held. I think this is
   irregular, but I'm not sure if it's acceptable for read-write semaphores.

2. The kernel may need to hold this read-write lock for operations not yet
   defined in the future. The TDX Module Base spec [*] notes on page 55:

   : Future TDX Module versions may have different or additional update-sensitive
   : cases. By design, such cases apply to a small portion of the overall TD
   : lifecycle.

[*]: https://cdrdv2.intel.com/v1/dl/getContent/733575

Given these concerns, I'm not sure whether implementing a read-write lock in
the kernel is the right approach.

Since Google prefers to "avoid updates during update-sensitive times," we can
implement that approach for now. If other Linux users find this insufficient
and prefer failing TD build/migration operations with strong justification, we
can enable that functionality in the future.

What do you think?

  parent reply	other threads:[~2025-10-24  7:43 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 120+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2025-10-01  2:52 [PATCH v2 00/21] Runtime TDX Module update support Chao Gao
2025-10-01  2:52 ` [PATCH v2 01/21] x86/virt/tdx: Print SEAMCALL leaf numbers in decimal Chao Gao
2026-01-14  7:13   ` Duan, Zhenzhong
2025-10-01  2:52 ` [PATCH v2 02/21] x86/virt/tdx: Use %# prefix for hex values in SEAMCALL error messages Chao Gao
2025-10-01  2:52 ` [PATCH v2 03/21] x86/virt/tdx: Move low level SEAMCALL helpers out of <asm/tdx.h> Chao Gao
2026-01-14  7:27   ` Duan, Zhenzhong
2025-10-01  2:52 ` [PATCH v2 04/21] x86/virt/tdx: Prepare to support P-SEAMLDR SEAMCALLs Chao Gao
2025-11-21  7:53   ` Binbin Wu
2025-12-02  7:23     ` Chao Gao
2026-01-13  9:48   ` Xu Yilun
2026-01-15  7:25     ` Chao Gao
2026-01-14  7:33   ` Duan, Zhenzhong
2026-01-15  5:37     ` Chao Gao
2025-10-01  2:52 ` [PATCH v2 05/21] x86/virt/seamldr: Introduce a wrapper for " Chao Gao
2025-11-21  8:41   ` Binbin Wu
2026-01-13 11:08   ` Xu Yilun
2026-01-15 10:12     ` Chao Gao
2026-01-14  7:47   ` Duan, Zhenzhong
2026-01-15 10:22     ` Chao Gao
2025-10-01  2:52 ` [PATCH v2 06/21] x86/virt/seamldr: Retrieve P-SEAMLDR information Chao Gao
2026-01-14  7:55   ` Duan, Zhenzhong
2025-10-01  2:52 ` [PATCH v2 07/21] coco/tdx-host: Expose P-SEAMLDR information via sysfs Chao Gao
2025-10-30 21:54   ` Sagi Shahar
2025-10-30 23:05     ` dan.j.williams
2025-10-31 14:31       ` Sagi Shahar
2026-01-14  1:50   ` Xu Yilun
2026-01-16  3:15     ` Chao Gao
2025-10-01  2:52 ` [PATCH v2 08/21] coco/tdx-host: Implement FW_UPLOAD sysfs ABI for TDX Module updates Chao Gao
2025-11-24  7:49   ` Binbin Wu
2025-12-02  7:20     ` Chao Gao
2026-01-14  3:08   ` Xu Yilun
2026-01-16  3:31     ` Chao Gao
2025-10-01  2:52 ` [PATCH v2 09/21] x86/virt/seamldr: Block TDX Module updates if any CPU is offline Chao Gao
2025-10-01  2:52 ` [PATCH v2 10/21] x86/virt/seamldr: Verify availability of slots for TDX Module updates Chao Gao
2025-10-01  2:52 ` [PATCH v2 11/21] x86/virt/seamldr: Allocate and populate a module update request Chao Gao
2025-11-27  8:30   ` Binbin Wu
2025-11-27  8:39     ` Binbin Wu
2025-12-02  7:03     ` Chao Gao
2026-01-14  6:45   ` Xu Yilun
2026-01-16  6:14     ` Chao Gao
2025-10-01  2:52 ` [PATCH v2 12/21] x86/virt/seamldr: Introduce skeleton for TDX Module updates Chao Gao
2025-10-01  2:52 ` [PATCH v2 13/21] x86/virt/seamldr: Abort updates if errors occurred midway Chao Gao
2026-01-14 10:40   ` Xu Yilun
2025-10-01  2:52 ` [PATCH v2 14/21] x86/virt/seamldr: Shut down the current TDX module Chao Gao
2025-12-03  2:24   ` Binbin Wu
2026-01-19  8:41     ` Chao Gao
2025-10-01  2:52 ` [PATCH v2 15/21] x86/virt/tdx: Reset software states after TDX module shutdown Chao Gao
2025-10-01  2:53 ` [PATCH v2 16/21] x86/virt/seamldr: Handle TDX Module update failures Chao Gao
2025-10-28  2:53   ` Chao Gao
2026-01-15  5:37     ` Xu Yilun
2026-01-15  6:24   ` Xu Yilun
2026-01-19  4:55     ` H. Peter Anvin
2026-01-19  5:34       ` Chao Gao
2026-01-19 16:24         ` Dave Hansen
2025-10-01  2:53 ` [PATCH v2 17/21] x86/virt/seamldr: Install a new TDX Module Chao Gao
2026-01-15  6:15   ` Xu Yilun
2026-01-19  0:28     ` Chao Gao
2025-10-01  2:53 ` [PATCH v2 18/21] x86/virt/seamldr: Do TDX per-CPU initialization after updates Chao Gao
2025-10-01  2:53 ` [PATCH v2 19/21] x86/virt/tdx: Establish contexts for the new TDX Module Chao Gao
2025-12-03  3:49   ` Binbin Wu
2026-01-19  8:49     ` Chao Gao
2025-10-01  2:53 ` [PATCH v2 20/21] x86/virt/tdx: Update tdx_sysinfo and check features post-update Chao Gao
2025-12-03  7:41   ` Binbin Wu
2026-01-19  9:24     ` Chao Gao
2026-01-26 21:22       ` dan.j.williams
2025-10-01  2:53 ` [PATCH v2 21/21] x86/virt/tdx: Enable TDX Module runtime updates Chao Gao
2025-10-14 15:32 ` [PATCH v2 00/21] Runtime TDX Module update support Vishal Annapurve
2025-10-15  8:54   ` Reshetova, Elena
2025-10-15 14:19     ` Vishal Annapurve
2025-10-16  6:48       ` Reshetova, Elena
2025-10-15 15:02     ` Dave Hansen
2025-10-16  6:46       ` Reshetova, Elena
2025-10-16 17:47         ` Vishal Annapurve
2025-10-17 10:08           ` Reshetova, Elena
2025-10-18  0:01             ` Vishal Annapurve
2025-10-21 13:42               ` Reshetova, Elena
2025-10-22  7:14               ` Chao Gao
2025-10-22 15:42                 ` Vishal Annapurve
2025-10-23 20:31                   ` Vishal Annapurve
2025-10-23 21:10                     ` Dave Hansen
2025-10-23 22:00                       ` Vishal Annapurve
2025-10-24  7:43                       ` Chao Gao [this message]
2025-10-24 18:02                         ` Dave Hansen
2025-10-24 19:40                           ` dan.j.williams
2025-10-24 20:00                             ` Sean Christopherson
2025-10-24 20:14                               ` Dave Hansen
2025-10-24 21:09                                 ` Vishal Annapurve
2025-10-24 20:13                             ` Dave Hansen
2025-10-24 21:12                               ` dan.j.williams
2025-10-24 21:19                                 ` Dave Hansen
2025-10-25  0:54                                   ` Vishal Annapurve
2025-10-25  1:42                                     ` dan.j.williams
2025-10-25 11:55                                       ` Vishal Annapurve
2025-10-25 12:01                                         ` Vishal Annapurve
2025-10-26 21:30                                         ` dan.j.williams
2025-10-26 22:01                                           ` Vishal Annapurve
2025-10-27 18:53                                             ` dan.j.williams
2025-10-28  0:42                                               ` Vishal Annapurve
2025-10-28  2:13                                                 ` dan.j.williams
2025-10-28 17:00                                                   ` Erdem Aktas
2025-10-29  0:56                                                     ` Sean Christopherson
2025-10-29  2:17                                                       ` dan.j.williams
2025-10-29 13:48                                                         ` Sean Christopherson
2025-10-30 17:01                                                           ` Vishal Annapurve
2025-10-31  2:53                                                             ` Chao Gao
2025-11-19 22:44                                                               ` Sagi Shahar
2025-11-20  2:47                                                                 ` Chao Gao
2025-11-20 23:38                                                                   ` Sagi Shahar
2025-10-28 23:48                                                   ` Vishal Annapurve
2025-10-28 20:29                                                 ` dan.j.williams
2025-10-28 20:32                                                   ` dan.j.williams
2025-10-31 16:55 ` Sagi Shahar
2025-10-31 17:57   ` Vishal Annapurve
2025-11-01  2:18     ` Chao Gao
2025-11-01  2:05   ` Chao Gao
2025-11-12 14:09 ` Chao Gao
2026-01-02 20:52   ` Edgecombe, Rick P
2026-01-02 21:15     ` Dave Hansen
2026-01-05  7:54       ` Chao Gao
2026-01-04  1:39     ` Chao Gao

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