From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on aws-us-west-2-korg-lkml-1.web.codeaurora.org Received: from lists.xenproject.org (lists.xenproject.org [192.237.175.120]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.lore.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3668DC54E41 for ; Thu, 29 Feb 2024 12:51:38 +0000 (UTC) Received: from list by lists.xenproject.org with outflank-mailman.687054.1069846 (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1rffsj-00015C-1j; Thu, 29 Feb 2024 12:51:25 +0000 X-Outflank-Mailman: Message body and most headers restored to incoming version Received: by outflank-mailman (output) from mailman id 687054.1069846; Thu, 29 Feb 2024 12:51:25 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.xenproject.org) by lists.xenproject.org with esmtp (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1rffsi-000155-UP; Thu, 29 Feb 2024 12:51:24 +0000 Received: by outflank-mailman (input) for mailman id 687054; Thu, 29 Feb 2024 12:51:24 +0000 Received: from se1-gles-flk1-in.inumbo.com ([94.247.172.50] helo=se1-gles-flk1.inumbo.com) by lists.xenproject.org with esmtp (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1rffsi-00014v-7M for xen-devel@lists.xenproject.org; Thu, 29 Feb 2024 12:51:24 +0000 Received: from mail-ej1-x632.google.com (mail-ej1-x632.google.com [2a00:1450:4864:20::632]) by se1-gles-flk1.inumbo.com (Halon) with ESMTPS id 3d61f8b9-d701-11ee-a1ee-f123f15fe8a2; Thu, 29 Feb 2024 13:51:22 +0100 (CET) Received: by mail-ej1-x632.google.com with SMTP id a640c23a62f3a-a4429c556efso152963966b.0 for ; Thu, 29 Feb 2024 04:51:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.156.60.236] (ip-037-024-206-209.um08.pools.vodafone-ip.de. [37.24.206.209]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id ti12-20020a170907c20c00b00a4138c3f054sm656409ejc.32.2024.02.29.04.51.21 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 29 Feb 2024 04:51:21 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: xen-devel@lists.xenproject.org List-Id: Xen developer discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: xen-devel-bounces@lists.xenproject.org Precedence: list Sender: "Xen-devel" X-Inumbo-ID: 3d61f8b9-d701-11ee-a1ee-f123f15fe8a2 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=suse.com; s=google; t=1709211081; x=1709815881; darn=lists.xenproject.org; h=content-transfer-encoding:in-reply-to:autocrypt:from:references:cc :to:content-language:subject:user-agent:mime-version:date:message-id :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=MyrzNvu2lYus1WJ92zu6GB+N2NdJKl6Xa1em8kZLN7M=; b=RG+orhGZfxz/gKkaPjcvB8bAdnHBhKv1AqnPIrOBkHZCChTsH+jmSM8d9umHKgZuw4 GtcOxDvlmQ50IGSGr/CcrO8Nl7sJ0ThsnzyPBfCeCL3qomH1lpyEBkk2c9BsOFNdFD0j H85OSO19ttRwDivQ0O8GDtcer9oRMMsC6305QXXZX79tYekxBvmXEVwyKUX5yHcXKIN1 3LmusXNAvowuxjjOCQhGmTwVsBp+Yec3nXjzRMkGSzILefdkeY3Eqb22KVlUtxLL4XkF V1xTuofJ21y+xdYvLhst7PH1zR/hOSK2c2ZpRNMRJ0hOicql33n2LgTc5JAVLSqOOpi8 02ew== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1709211081; x=1709815881; h=content-transfer-encoding:in-reply-to:autocrypt:from:references:cc :to:content-language:subject:user-agent:mime-version:date:message-id :x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=MyrzNvu2lYus1WJ92zu6GB+N2NdJKl6Xa1em8kZLN7M=; b=eWhlT0GoFOMqzLuyfuQiOZRK5EXS3hp8p8bJ9kxpZVIwcLpnGnhARgjSpJql/kJYyl 6Iu9egak94m/F1tRU6Fs9GF8cOoSXMqqPmCi80m9AHgXkHBdp8obn1WLMCOqfYQkIGSq JDkiU+SuZ8RAQJd4V1FWXE7FNG5mhEXUXGeWCfK+l0n8hHbMvDVlTGtT3SwRFHoSpNUb b0aO2qGbFdVy5rGFxsVnjUvWo95mG6Qojz7Uc//spGoct0VgQh8i0J5ucE928bYX8YME gE0MXv2qOEVx2z2gdCa/5uzfIL6v+9OrHkcmVa3eX8pANzL/5JqysBRWrhajFEDxt5Jx Z8qg== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCXHHhYJ1KEeIMp+wNKrWEaTxI1nMZneW0vW3yvhuEORwNEmUF3X3DWgu/jlUWVgxx1RHyOKfjqwT5iaUhKtgAKe6bJt3ORHhbk6wRk/D4k= X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YxbZi8ynNQ6RUOVs/p6LCSQhAxwqvfPZTlMM2W8CS/CuQ+ShHTm tnxv59ZUQIijtQKq33uEeHbJRD3x7yv+SKlyDHwHn6KjBdDUcHjL5Vq4fltcrOG1wcY9+HdFDWQ = X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IEnRbyK82of9AakUkrx+DncXYF2uUriUbtIw4sKaunI3VBVmF36OqTuo/gcwo9zmszoAHjWow== X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:3c47:b0:a44:1ace:2186 with SMTP id i7-20020a1709063c4700b00a441ace2186mr1446459ejg.22.1709211081573; Thu, 29 Feb 2024 04:51:21 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 29 Feb 2024 13:51:20 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: [PATCH v5 23/23] xen/README: add compiler and binutils versions for RISC-V64 Content-Language: en-US To: Julien Grall Cc: George Dunlap , Stefano Stabellini , Wei Liu , xen-devel@lists.xenproject.org, Oleksii Kurochko , Andrew Cooper References: <73a38d85-0798-4cfa-8625-0f8c9e05b2a3@suse.com> <80fb8091-9a26-40a4-b2e7-371df9411861@xen.org> <889b132b-b92e-465b-94af-4e4133e4c297@suse.com> <52188e88-374c-449f-a71c-bfce9b6d07f4@xen.org> <2a112321-f4fd-4ab4-a431-a0bb4cb6eaa2@suse.com> <9b212dec-59ef-4cbb-bea7-add3867e4599@xen.org> From: Jan Beulich Autocrypt: addr=jbeulich@suse.com; keydata= xsDiBFk3nEQRBADAEaSw6zC/EJkiwGPXbWtPxl2xCdSoeepS07jW8UgcHNurfHvUzogEq5xk hu507c3BarVjyWCJOylMNR98Yd8VqD9UfmX0Hb8/BrA+Hl6/DB/eqGptrf4BSRwcZQM32aZK 7Pj2XbGWIUrZrd70x1eAP9QE3P79Y2oLrsCgbZJfEwCgvz9JjGmQqQkRiTVzlZVCJYcyGGsD /0tbFCzD2h20ahe8rC1gbb3K3qk+LpBtvjBu1RY9drYk0NymiGbJWZgab6t1jM7sk2vuf0Py O9Hf9XBmK0uE9IgMaiCpc32XV9oASz6UJebwkX+zF2jG5I1BfnO9g7KlotcA/v5ClMjgo6Gl MDY4HxoSRu3i1cqqSDtVlt+AOVBJBACrZcnHAUSuCXBPy0jOlBhxPqRWv6ND4c9PH1xjQ3NP nxJuMBS8rnNg22uyfAgmBKNLpLgAGVRMZGaGoJObGf72s6TeIqKJo/LtggAS9qAUiuKVnygo 3wjfkS9A3DRO+SpU7JqWdsveeIQyeyEJ/8PTowmSQLakF+3fote9ybzd880fSmFuIEJldWxp Y2ggPGpiZXVsaWNoQHN1c2UuY29tPsJgBBMRAgAgBQJZN5xEAhsDBgsJCAcDAgQVAggDBBYC AwECHgECF4AACgkQoDSui/t3IH4J+wCfQ5jHdEjCRHj23O/5ttg9r9OIruwAn3103WUITZee e7Sbg12UgcQ5lv7SzsFNBFk3nEQQCACCuTjCjFOUdi5Nm244F+78kLghRcin/awv+IrTcIWF hUpSs1Y91iQQ7KItirz5uwCPlwejSJDQJLIS+QtJHaXDXeV6NI0Uef1hP20+y8qydDiVkv6l IreXjTb7DvksRgJNvCkWtYnlS3mYvQ9NzS9PhyALWbXnH6sIJd2O9lKS1Mrfq+y0IXCP10eS FFGg+Av3IQeFatkJAyju0PPthyTqxSI4lZYuJVPknzgaeuJv/2NccrPvmeDg6Coe7ZIeQ8Yj t0ARxu2xytAkkLCel1Lz1WLmwLstV30g80nkgZf/wr+/BXJW/oIvRlonUkxv+IbBM3dX2OV8 AmRv1ySWPTP7AAMFB/9PQK/VtlNUJvg8GXj9ootzrteGfVZVVT4XBJkfwBcpC/XcPzldjv+3 HYudvpdNK3lLujXeA5fLOH+Z/G9WBc5pFVSMocI71I8bT8lIAzreg0WvkWg5V2WZsUMlnDL9 mpwIGFhlbM3gfDMs7MPMu8YQRFVdUvtSpaAs8OFfGQ0ia3LGZcjA6Ik2+xcqscEJzNH+qh8V m5jjp28yZgaqTaRbg3M/+MTbMpicpZuqF4rnB0AQD12/3BNWDR6bmh+EkYSMcEIpQmBM51qM EKYTQGybRCjpnKHGOxG0rfFY1085mBDZCH5Kx0cl0HVJuQKC+dV2ZY5AqjcKwAxpE75MLFkr wkkEGBECAAkFAlk3nEQCGwwACgkQoDSui/t3IH7nnwCfcJWUDUFKdCsBH/E5d+0ZnMQi+G0A nAuWpQkjM1ASeQwSHEeAWPgskBQL In-Reply-To: <9b212dec-59ef-4cbb-bea7-add3867e4599@xen.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 29.02.2024 13:32, Julien Grall wrote: > On 29/02/2024 12:17, Jan Beulich wrote: >> On 29.02.2024 13:05, Andrew Cooper wrote: >>> On 29/02/2024 10:23 am, Julien Grall wrote: >>>>>>> IOW it is hard for me to see why RISC-V needs stronger restrictions >>>>>>> here >>>>>>> than other architectures. It ought to be possible to determine a >>>>>>> baseline >>>>>>> version. Even if taking the desire to have "pause" available as a >>>>>>> requirement, gas (and presumably gld) 2.36.1 would already suffice. >>>>>> >>>>>> I think we want to bump it on Arm. There are zero reasons to try to >>>>>> keep >>>>>> a lower versions if nobody tests/use it in production. >>>>>> >>>>>> I would suggest to do the same on x86. What's the point of try to >>>>>> support Xen with a 15+ years old compiler? >>>>> >>>>> It could have long been bumped if only a proper scheme to follow for >>>>> this and future bumping would have been put forward by anyone keen on >>>>> such bumping, like - see his reply - e.g. Andrew. You may recall that >>>>> this was discussed more than once on meetings, with no real outcome. >>>>> I'm personally not meaning to stand in the way of such bumping as long >>>>> as it's done in a predictable manner, but I'm not keen on doing so and >>>>> hence I don't view it as my obligation to try to invent a reasonable >>>>> scheme. (My personal view is that basic functionality should be >>>>> possible to have virtually everywhere, whereas for advanced stuff it >>>>> is fine to require a more modern tool chain.) >>>> >>>> That's one way to see it. The problem with this statement is a user >>>> today is mislead to think you can build Xen with any GCC versions >>>> since 4.1. I don't believe we can guarantee that and we are exposing >>>> our users to unnecessary risk. >>>> >>>> In addition to that, I agree with Andrew. This is preventing us to >>>> improve our code base and we have to carry hacks for older compilers. >>> >>> I don't think anyone here is suggesting that we switch to a >>> bleeding-edge-only policy.  But 15y of support is extreme in the >>> opposite direction. >>> >>> Xen ought to be buildable in the contemporary distros of the day, and I >>> don't think anyone is going to credibly argue otherwise. >>> >>> But, it's also fine for new things to have newer requirements. >>> >>> Take CET for example.  I know we have disagreements on exactly how it's >>> toolchain-conditionalness is implemented, but the basic principle of "If >>> you want shiny new optional feature $X, you need newer toolchain $Y" is >>> entirely fine. >>> >>> A brand new architecture is exactly the same.  Saying "this is the >>> minimum, because it's what we test" doesn't preclude someone coming >>> along and saying "can we use $N-1 ?  See here it works, and here's a >>> change to CI test it". >>> >>> >>> Anyway, its clear we need to write some policy on this, before making >>> specific adjustments.  To get started, is there going to be any >>> objection whatsoever on some principles which begin as follows: >> >> Largely not, but one aspect needs clarifying up front: >> >>> * For established architectures, we expect Xen to be buildable on the >>> common contemporary distros.  (i.e. minima is not newer than what's >>> available in contemporary distros, without a good reason) >> >> What counts as contemporary distro? Still in normal support? LTS? Yet >> more extreme forms? > > LTS makes sense. More I am not sure. I am under the impression that > people using older distros are those that wants a stable system. So they > would unlikely try to upgrade the hypervisor. > > Even for LTS, I would argue that if it has been released 5 years ago, > then you probably want to update it at the same time as moving to a > newer Xen version. For the purposes of distros I agree. For the purposes of individuals I don't: What's wrong with running a newer hypervisor and/or kernel underneath an older distro? Jan