From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from smtp.kernel.org (aws-us-west-2-korg-mail-alma10-1.taild15c8.ts.net [100.103.45.18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.subspace.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3BC6A42A96 for ; Sat, 1 Aug 2026 00:06:55 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; arc=none smtp.client-ip=100.103.45.18 ARC-Seal:i=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=subspace.kernel.org; s=arc-20240116; t=1785542816; cv=none; b=L+OCAwankWzsjOv7dclG8KaeyJdnVUBhybi17vFNyMCstwvgAo9t/VjTlfhoLeRC3hUUxonj9yA0WVDtBOTDowVT8F0/CZZNjJ6UO/1VWCzHjZGk/UHnZKxNGgiu61ZHNtSSh/iZyyaR+dyFQyeZPAQcFyppEUEs3z1T68WN4VQ= ARC-Message-Signature:i=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=subspace.kernel.org; s=arc-20240116; t=1785542816; c=relaxed/simple; bh=mApv6vrvRbs3SBbyMmg5wT/L+gzqwO+PxXPjQ4Kbmvs=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:Message-ID:References:MIME-Version: Content-Type:Content-Disposition:In-Reply-To; b=FGW3l0EVD9aC9XQ2ZJGrJFMcSiLTU0eEDuAEOpZHTzLhw8QVdoywIZttvrrSm2CRrXm0UwO6Q+rEhLW2og3XDDL0uy8HjYRO9V2ADgcesVx9mN8tzHCX7mADOiNP0kZu1KE1isSYRI4CiE0MoSTjw9224+uDjHoaFo0ZTK+bfe0= ARC-Authentication-Results:i=1; smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=kernel.org header.i=@kernel.org header.b=F3NvR0NP; arc=none smtp.client-ip=100.103.45.18 Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=kernel.org header.i=@kernel.org header.b="F3NvR0NP" Received: by smtp.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 64C8A1F00AC4; Sat, 1 Aug 2026 00:06:52 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=kernel.org; s=k20260515; t=1785542815; bh=ZQj/kbLoTz6ixmkjoHcY1ut7jE1OmDfnLzdjXfwaFE4=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:In-Reply-To; b=F3NvR0NPi3Bw1LeaKt9XQrTU3RZXRe6C9+RCXmJjXu0NvDZxLcveh/bGOApEk/ouN yUexA4HDzGGwO1XaNjUFTdw9o975eoQZ2DFY+z1jpDkXaqX5gf8kTw8jYGaX7qmA7G tc/Eqfxrhb8YuMFyr27J5xruOb+Q+8CVx+fXNmbDCLMyxUIAgNQujp/7an59Jqu2HH nmIi4C+3AzaK49lZLaE9erpEn9z7WizVr2dP/LxoFQvIpyIUbyBP5CO0cKIkg52yyD eDyhFNLDK1WQlMmv4ojTl0lyVeTEu3aXeFlQ7OjQH6TqD1cqg1pcuGVW7zXTQdUlZA qntJsvK1ahx1w== Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2026 02:06:50 +0200 From: Alejandro Colomar To: "G. Branden Robinson" Cc: Joseph Myers , linux-man@vger.kernel.org, Keith Bostic , Mark Harris , Nevin Liber , JeanHeyd Meneide , Christopher Bazley , "Serge E. Hallyn" , Iker Pedrosa , "Evgeny Grin (Karlson2k)" , Kees Cook , bug-gnulib@gnu.org, libc-alpha@sourceware.org Subject: Re: [PATCH 1/2] man/man3/{mem,strn}*(): SYNOPSIS, STANDARDS: Document these as provided by Message-ID: References: <784288e704183a4297aeaa3d13af8edab18bc1ea.1785532392.git.alx@kernel.org> <20260731215122.4p4aepsbgeoibx74@illithid> <89c9b877-54a8-6a7c-016d-51e4be210ad6@redhat.com> <0407bda3-c03a-93cb-9400-5fb8256a30f2@redhat.com> <20260731230847.prx4gay3ejvqdy6q@illithid> <8b8fc216-8c6e-fcc2-c72a-2c26555d95e7@redhat.com> <20260731235747.7bwyb2xul4zhryuu@illithid> Precedence: bulk X-Mailing-List: linux-man@vger.kernel.org List-Id: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="zorhsguq6bpf334p" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20260731235747.7bwyb2xul4zhryuu@illithid> --zorhsguq6bpf334p Content-Type: text/plain; protected-headers=v1; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Alejandro Colomar To: "G. Branden Robinson" Cc: Joseph Myers , linux-man@vger.kernel.org, Keith Bostic , Mark Harris , Nevin Liber , JeanHeyd Meneide , Christopher Bazley , "Serge E. Hallyn" , Iker Pedrosa , "Evgeny Grin (Karlson2k)" , Kees Cook , bug-gnulib@gnu.org, libc-alpha@sourceware.org Subject: Re: [PATCH 1/2] man/man3/{mem,strn}*(): SYNOPSIS, STANDARDS: Document these as provided by Message-ID: References: <784288e704183a4297aeaa3d13af8edab18bc1ea.1785532392.git.alx@kernel.org> <20260731215122.4p4aepsbgeoibx74@illithid> <89c9b877-54a8-6a7c-016d-51e4be210ad6@redhat.com> <0407bda3-c03a-93cb-9400-5fb8256a30f2@redhat.com> <20260731230847.prx4gay3ejvqdy6q@illithid> <8b8fc216-8c6e-fcc2-c72a-2c26555d95e7@redhat.com> <20260731235747.7bwyb2xul4zhryuu@illithid> MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20260731235747.7bwyb2xul4zhryuu@illithid> Hi Branden, > Date: 2026-07-31 18:57:47-0500 > From: "G. Branden Robinson" > > Hi Joseph, >=20 > At 2026-07-31T23:28:19+0000, Joseph Myers wrote: > > And I consider it an abuse of position to change man-pages to declare > > to users in general of C libraries on GNU/Linux that your standards > > proposal, at a very early stage (not even an N-document), is the One > > True Way of using the functions. >=20 > I agree that there is a _potential_ moral hazard here. >=20 > > It would be more neutral to say in the man pages that "as of July > > 2026, one member of WG14 has proposed moving these functions to > > [reference]; this proposal has not yet been considered by > > WG14". (I doubt the utility to users of describing proposed changes > > in man-pages at such an early stage, especially since the information > > would be long obsolete by the time those revisions of the pages make > > it into distributions, but it would at least more accurately reflect > > reality, and be vaguely neutral as long as you do it for *everyone's* > > open proposals, *including those you personally disagree with*, rather > > than privileging your own.) >=20 > I endorse this perspective. Another thing Alex could do is gate such > readily-obsolescent stuff behind a *roff register so that it doesn't > format (or, if one uses soelim(1), even populate the document sources), > for _official releases_, but is still there for people pulling on Alex's > Git repository. >=20 > My interpretation of Alex's tactics is that he feels energetic about his > proposal, is willing to think it through carefully and advocate for > it--these are good things--and that he wants to get it in front of > domain experts and anneal it by fire before formally putting it before > WG14--_also_ a good thing! In the meantime, he is the steward of a > platform that _is_ topically implicated. >=20 > Such a position _can_ be abused, but it also seems not quite fair to me > to expect him to stifle his advocacy in a _relevant_ forum. >=20 > Conventionally, what Alex faces is a potential conflict of interest. > There are a variety of ways to cope with those. Foremost is disclosure > to others of the potential conflict. That's such an important factor > that I'd say it's 90% of the battle. Most of the time when people > resist disclosing potential CofIs it's because they're self-dealing, > they know it, and realize that disclosure would be self-incriminating. Indeed. While I haven't explicitly mentioned CofI, I haven't hidden it either, and have mentioned all the relevant information. If I haven't merged this single-handedly, it's precisely because I think there could be some, and want to get feedback. Cheers, Alex >=20 > There is another tier to the issue, and its recourse is recusal. We > most often see this in the context of arbitration or in the judiciary. >=20 > However, Alex is not situated as a judge or gatekeeper here. To WG14, > and to C library maintainers, he is an advocate. Has Alex rejected any > proposed patches to the Linux man-pages along similar lines as his own > advocacy? That would be gatekeeping. >=20 > Alex might consider deputizing a fellow maintainer to handle updates to > portions of man pages where he has, or expects to have, business before > WG14. >=20 > Regards, > Branden --=20 --zorhsguq6bpf334p Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAABCgAdFiEES7Jt9u9GbmlWADAi64mZXMKQwqkFAmptOJoACgkQ64mZXMKQ wqnunA/+P9WXqtIgqGIIDP3MJ9cJnYOjYvrnwci6O0hL/QySbXMuaNrRaaPuFd6X 6DZKbuIWanwPzSYPFIa/zFA6Ndct+qG36H/vvh16PNPxwmjsJmWwfVMJXdIYH4o5 tXIlINLDIZvxXmML8ugqADIa5HWKQqm/Joe56Y28QVXZoyreQcxWW25GyvXPMnrB OV5I7P7SMxa7rLG+lEAPAa3wngvRQ7bPxVQ7ox36C6cDkCNK9xFqCt5IL932nrQl fXMUhpOp7p7rW4l5K0hiMKY77t2NXbHxDo/GsZqC6gq9iQpSrhBCLumfbAEpUP0u AV+9JM7Q1q4/VIsEFKDJ1903znU78+njxf6NMzyQf0zBNK8NVi9dK634A5jFaAya 9NCf80oH5pRoXeCDrVK3d789RcrFaB0wAPUeFcSjRvbmllTx509oaWWM2PlgCU5U OMItTd/coULo8yWb1gnW9ew3SC1dhg0A9r4kHZzQDUayPzSr1xBZ02WMM473rG5s Gf4v8VtQSonlwLas3tKLr8VO0uDoMST9vsXRZQGH5r/R6J7bI1eCz3j6KRR5YC+f 502jRji+kY8l9vQeqX/OpDT9LKY3FPhjzQGe7WDU88veeEUTXcYzHRj7kUFS8Scb iDAlJxF3QIsY65t7W11lwoUxUlwFnttVgR2lqWx5ZYSySgI/auI= =i08C -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --zorhsguq6bpf334p--