Re: [Qemu-devel] Qemu development schedule?

["Info" <info@geodb.org>]

Thanks for clarifying this to some people. I have seen a 
lot of other newslists where similar people are 
complaining about the free and good work of genious 
persons. I like this project and it helps some people to 
get there old OS and apps working on a new machine. Why 
should the normal user relearn every thing again when he 
got his apps that do what he need ?

Thanks to Fabrice and all supporting people.

Andreas

On Wed, 01 Sep 2004 10:03:40 -0700
  "John R. Hogerhuis" <jhoger@pobox.com> wrote:
>*This message was transferred with a trial version of 
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>On Tue, 2004-08-31 at 10:40, Jeebs wrote:
>
>> No, I'm saying it because I am concerned that how Qemu 
>>has been developed in
>> the past will soon turn out to be a liability and impeed 
>>future progress.
>> 
>
>I'll believe it when I see it. For now, progress is 
>fantastic. You not
>being a developer means you don't know what you're 
>talking about. So how
>can you provide constructive criticism about development 
>methodology? Do
>you claim to know under what conditions Fabrice and those 
>who provide
>patches here, are effective, efficient developers?
>
>> 
>> >> At some point, successful open source projects have 
>>to transition from
>> >> the
>> >> 'free for all' attitude and organization to one with 
>>some actual
>> >> specified
>> >> goals and some organization.
>> >
>> > Why?
>> 
>> Because most non-'toy' projects fail if they don't 
>>adapt.
>> 
>
>Can you say passive aggressive? Your attitude implicit in 
>the way you
>say things is very negative. You will catch more flies 
>with honey than
>vinegar. Implying QEMU is a toy project is what you just 
>did, that's
>just going to piss off the folks that know you're wrong, 
>and they will
>stop listening to you, as I am about to do.
>
>> Non-developers have different expectations.  Even if 
>>they don't expect 100% 
>> perfect results and bug-free code, they still have 
>>different expectations, 
>> and a 'developer' attitude rarely addresses those kinds 
>>of expectations.
>> 
>
>And non-programmers apparently have different 
>expectations than
>programmers, like, if someone places software for freely 
>available for
>download they are inviting me to come and whine about how 
>they organize
>the development they do in their free time...
>
>How would you like your boss to show up at your house on 
>the weekend and
>give you advice on how to deal with your personal issues, 
>or organize
>your chores more effectively and efficiently around your 
>house?
>
>FOSS developers do things in their free time. They don't 
>mind if you ask
>politely for features or file/post bug reports. You are 
>treading
>dangerous ground though when as a non-contributor you 
>start making
>complaints about development style.
>
>> Since I'm not a developer, how do I determine what to 
>>put onto the list of
>> things that need to be done?  A wee bit of a problem 
>>there.
>> 
>> 
>
>As a non-developer you may qualified to write howtos, 
>documentation,
>make bug-reports, and collect traces showing how to fix 
>those bugs. What
>you are not qualified to do is determine the best way a 
>FOSS project
>should be organized or what is the most 
>effective/efficient way to get
>useful features into a product. But that seems to be all 
>that I'm
>hearing from you.
>
>But what it sounds even more like, is that you know 
>enough about
>software to get by. If you knew C once, you could pick it 
>up again. But
>it seems you would rather wallow in your helplessness, 
>since then you
>don't actually have to do anything about the problems you 
>whine about.
>
>> But as I said, I'm out of practice.
>> 
>> Just last week I was trying to tell somebody about a 
>>library function, and I
>> had to actually go dig out my ref books just to see what 
>>header it's in and
>> what the params are.
>> 
>
>Most programming these days is API treasure hunt. Do you 
>seriously think
>anybody but an idiot savant really has all argument lists 
>and parameters
>in his head? Learn to use grep.
>
>> After several years of no programming at all, I honest 
>>and truely seriously 
>> doubt you'd be happy with the quality of code that I'd 
>>be writing today.
>> 
>
>Probably not (that's why you need to give more respect to 
>the type of
>work that Fabrice is interested in doing, which is hard 
>stuff the
>average code monkey cannot do in a reasonable period of 
>time), but does
>that mean you can't design an API, build a front end, 
>etc. Sometimes
>just providing a working "seed" can spur another 
>developer to extend it,
>clean it up, or provide their own implementation. 
>
>> 
>> > Again, why? If things get unusable for a developer, 
>>she will fix it. If
>> > things get unusable for a non-developer, he will try 
>>to find somebody who
>> > can and wants to fix it (often you can help the 2nd 
>>part).
>> 
>> Alright....
>> 
>> So these users complain.  Which has been starting to 
>>happen.
>> 
>
>Not really. I haven't noticed much in the way of 
>complaints aside from
>yours. Most of the things I've read from non-programmers 
>is "I can get
>such and such to work, I've tried 6 ways, I read the FAQ, 
>can't get it
>to work, what do I do?" This is 100% legitimate. How to 
>ask questions is
>covered thoroughly by ESR, I suggest you learn to do it 
>and ask one. If
>you want to file bug reports against a front end, you're 
>in luck as
>there are front end projects out there (I believe there 
>were 2 at last
>count... but have you even tried contacting the folks at 
>the project you
>do know about?)
>
>> What are the chances those bugs will get fixed? 
>> Especially if nobody is
>> bothering to even write them down?
>> 
>> Pretty much zero.
>> 
>
>Folks are generating patches, they post them to the list, 
>and Fabrice
>applies them as he sees fit. That's how it works. Do you 
>have any reason
>to believe he's dropping legitimate patches that should 
>be applied?
>
>
>> >
>> > Why should the project have that goal? I am not Jesus 
>>nor RMS.
>> 
>> If it doesn't, then okay.  If the actual, official goal 
>>of the project is to
>> do it only as a developer project and not a user 
>>project, then okay.
>> 
>
>Huh? I can use it. I don't have to tweak any code to use 
>it. Therefore
>it is usable. Does that make it a "user project", I don't 
>know, since
>I've never heard that term before...
>
>What is a "developer project?" did you make that up? Do 
>you know any
>software projects that don't start out with sharp edges 
>outside of
>medical and aerospace? QEMU is remarkably usable for a 
>young project of
>its complexity. How much did you pay for VmWare? Look at 
>how much you
>paid for QEMU, and consider that QEMU is probably at or 
>exceeding vmware
>functionality in many ways, and is rapidly improving in 
>the important
>areas.
>
>Since Fabrice said he would commit a decent GUI 
>implementation to source
>control, you can either pray that someone does it, learn 
>to do it
>yourself, pay someone to do it (i.e. start a company like 
>Codeweavers
>and build a polished front end and focus on showstopper 
>bugs and
>usability issues), etc. What won't work is whining to the 
>list.
>
>> But that needs to be stated, otherwise a whole lotta 
>>people are wasting
>> their time watching this project.
>> 
>
>Or else what, the Free Software Regulatory Agency is 
>going to fine the
>project? If you're asking for permission to go find 
>something else to do
>while QEMU "evolves" past a "toy " "developer project" 
>(all your words)
>then I give you permission. Go find something else to do. 
>Whining about
>things you clearly don't grok is unproductive. In the 
>meantime you
>apparently have a copy of VmWare to use.
>
>If one non programmer on this list is making good use of 
>QEMU, than you
>are dead wrong on this about people "wasting their time." 
>QEMU has
>gotten steadily more useful in the important ways, even 
>if not your pet
>feature (GUI front end)
>
>> 
>> >> At the very least, you need a list of things that 
>>eventually need to be
>> >> done.
>> >
>> > No. You don't. Nobody has a (complete) list of things 
>>that need to be done
>> > for the Linux kernel.
>> 
>> Not a 100% list, probably not, no.  But they do (and 
>>did) have a rough list
>> of problems and things to do and test.
>> 
>
>No you are wrong. Linux is chaos with some controls, i.e. 
>Linus and his
>lieutenants. There is no roadmap a la a commercial 
>project. And if you
>notice, even in the commercial world, without a contract, 
>roadmaps and
>the substrate the bits travel is worth the substrate.
>
>-- John.
>
>
>
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