Will the real alsa wiki please stand up?

Will the real alsa wiki please stand up?

[j t]

There something at:

http://bugtrack.alsa-project.org/main/index.php/Main_Page

which thinks it's the alsa wiki, and there something at:

http://alsa.opensrc.org/Main_Page

which alsa thinks it's the alsa wiki.

Well, devs, which is the imposter? And would it be a good idea to
reduce the number of distinct alsa wikis to something smaller, perhaps
"1"?

Jaime :-)

PS: apologies to "To Tell the Truth".

Re: Will the real alsa wiki please stand up?

[Ingo Müller]

Hi!

If you had read carefully what the main page of alsa.opensrc.org sais,
you'd know that this is an unofficial wiki. The story of the other wiki
is bit harder to find, but if you want, you can read it at

http://mailman.alsa-project.org/pipermail/alsa-devel/2007-April/000412.html

The basic of the story is, that it has been created maybe two months ago
by official ALSA developpers to replace the official ALSA web site,
which was difficult to maintain and to keep up to date. The thing is,
that only a few people seem to care that much that they would help to
transfer content from the web site to the new wiki (thanks a lot to
those who do care!). Feel free to contribute :-)

Anyway, I totally agree with you that having one single wiki would be a
lot better for everybody. Again, the problem is, that the merging has to
be done by someone and this means work.

Regards, Ingo



j t schrieb:
> There something at:
> 
> http://bugtrack.alsa-project.org/main/index.php/Main_Page
> 
> which thinks it's the alsa wiki, and there something at:
> 
> http://alsa.opensrc.org/Main_Page
> 
> which alsa thinks it's the alsa wiki.
> 
> Well, devs, which is the imposter? And would it be a good idea to
> reduce the number of distinct alsa wikis to something smaller, perhaps
> "1"?
> 
> Jaime :-)
> 
> PS: apologies to "To Tell the Truth".

Re: Will the real alsa wiki please stand up?

[j t]

On 5/26/07, Ingo Müller <alsa@ingomueller.net> wrote:
> Hi!
>
> If you had read carefully what the main page of alsa.opensrc.org sais,
> you'd know that this is an unofficial wiki.

Oops - my bad. Sorry...

> The story of the other wiki
> is bit harder to find, but if you want, you can read it at
>
> http://mailman.alsa-project.org/pipermail/alsa-devel/2007-April/000412.html
>
> The basic of the story is, that it has been created maybe two months ago
> by official ALSA developpers to replace the official ALSA web site,
> which was difficult to maintain and to keep up to date. The thing is,
> that only a few people seem to care that much that they would help to
> transfer content from the web site to the new wiki (thanks a lot to
> those who do care!). Feel free to contribute :-)

I will, just as soon as I work out which of the two wikis I should be
contributing to...

>
> Anyway, I totally agree with you that having one single wiki would be a
> lot better for everybody. Again, the problem is, that the merging has to
> be done by someone and this means work.

I could be wrong (that's my normal disclaimer out of the way), but
surely the effort of merging would seem to be futile if the majority
of edits subsequently go to the "wrong" wiki (I'm talking here from a
practical viewpoint).

Does anyone know if the people who maintain the "unofficial" wiki
would be offended/"put up resistance"/disagree if their wiki were
"superceded"? If no, a note could be added to the unofficial about the
new "official" one (it's interesting to note that the unofficial wiki
doesn't mention the official one at all, although that could just be a
lack of resources, rather than something intentional).

I hope that at least some of this makes sense...

Jaime

Re: Will the real alsa wiki please stand up?

[Ingo Müller]

Hi!

Being one of the wiki sysops and certainly the most contributing user of
the last half year, I would not only "not put resistance", but greatly
appriciate if the two wiki were merged. I started to work on the wiki,
because I wasn't happy with ALSA's documentation and especially that it
was splattered all over the internet instead of being concentrated on
its official web site. Therefore I welcome anything that improves this
miss-situation.

I don't know what the main administrator and creator of the wiki would
say, though. We should probably just ask him what he thinks of this
idea. His name is Mark Constable and you can contact him through his
user page of the wiki at

http://alsa.opensrc.org/User_talk:Markc

In the meantime, as a personal opinion, I'd contribute to the unofficial
wiki. It largely beats the new wiki in matters of popularity and
completeness. Anyway, it doesn't matter that much, were you contribute,
because everything can be copied from one wiki to the other once we
decided how to proceed further...

If you do want to contribute to the new wiki, you should have a look at
http://alsa.opensrc.org/ALSA:Community_Portal. There is an (unordered)
todo list and discussions about the wiki. Feel free to add more points
to the list and share ideas about the wiki :-)

Greets, Ingo



j t schrieb:
> On 5/26/07, Ingo Müller <alsa@ingomueller.net> wrote:
>> Hi!
>>
>> If you had read carefully what the main page of alsa.opensrc.org sais,
>> you'd know that this is an unofficial wiki.
> 
> Oops - my bad. Sorry...
> 
>> The story of the other wiki
>> is bit harder to find, but if you want, you can read it at
>>
>> http://mailman.alsa-project.org/pipermail/alsa-devel/2007-April/000412.html
>>
>> The basic of the story is, that it has been created maybe two months ago
>> by official ALSA developpers to replace the official ALSA web site,
>> which was difficult to maintain and to keep up to date. The thing is,
>> that only a few people seem to care that much that they would help to
>> transfer content from the web site to the new wiki (thanks a lot to
>> those who do care!). Feel free to contribute :-)
> 
> I will, just as soon as I work out which of the two wikis I should be
> contributing to...
> 
>> Anyway, I totally agree with you that having one single wiki would be a
>> lot better for everybody. Again, the problem is, that the merging has to
>> be done by someone and this means work.
> 
> I could be wrong (that's my normal disclaimer out of the way), but
> surely the effort of merging would seem to be futile if the majority
> of edits subsequently go to the "wrong" wiki (I'm talking here from a
> practical viewpoint).
> 
> Does anyone know if the people who maintain the "unofficial" wiki
> would be offended/"put up resistance"/disagree if their wiki were
> "superceded"? If no, a note could be added to the unofficial about the
> new "official" one (it's interesting to note that the unofficial wiki
> doesn't mention the official one at all, although that could just be a
> lack of resources, rather than something intentional).
> 
> I hope that at least some of this makes sense...
> 
> Jaime

Re: Will the real alsa wiki please stand up?

[j t]

On 5/27/07, Ingo Müller <alsa@ingomueller.net> wrote:
> Hi!
>
> Being one of the wiki sysops and certainly the most contributing user of
> the last half year, I would not only "not put resistance", but greatly
> appriciate if the two wiki were merged.

I've been looking into this a little more, and I've just found out
that the official alsa wiki contains 20 articles, while the unofficial
wiki contains 602 articles. Unless somebody can machine-merge these
two wikis together, surely it would be a better idea (less effort!) to
copy the contents of the official into the unofficial, and then
transfer the whole unofficial one over to the official domain.

Am I missing something obvious? (Is there a reason why the new
official wiki was created "blank", rather than with a dump from the
unofficial one)?

Jaime

Re: Will the real alsa wiki please stand up?

[Lee Revell]

On 5/30/07, j t <mark473@gmail.com> wrote:
> Am I missing something obvious? (Is there a reason why the new
> official wiki was created "blank", rather than with a dump from the
> unofficial one)?

Possibly because most of the information in the unofficial wiki is
incorrect and/or outdated.  For example, last time I checked it still
said you have to manually configure dmix for most cards which has not
been the case for at least a year.

Lee

Re: Will the real alsa wiki please stand up?

[Takashi Iwai]

At Wed, 30 May 2007 20:29:53 +0100,
j t wrote:
> 
> On 5/27/07, Ingo Müller <alsa@ingomueller.net> wrote:
> > Hi!
> >
> > Being one of the wiki sysops and certainly the most contributing user of
> > the last half year, I would not only "not put resistance", but greatly
> > appriciate if the two wiki were merged.
> 
> I've been looking into this a little more, and I've just found out
> that the official alsa wiki contains 20 articles, while the unofficial
> wiki contains 602 articles. Unless somebody can machine-merge these
> two wikis together, surely it would be a better idea (less effort!) to
> copy the contents of the official into the unofficial, and then
> transfer the whole unofficial one over to the official domain.

Hm, transfering the whole data between different Wikis isn't always
easy especially when they use different wiki backend.  So, I guess it
won't decrease the effort but requires copying twice.

> Am I missing something obvious? (Is there a reason why the new
> official wiki was created "blank", rather than with a dump from the
> unofficial one)?

The primary purpose of the official wiki is to replace the whole old
www.alsa-project.org pages.  Yes, eventually we can merge the
information from unofficial wiki but we should do carefuly with
confirmation of validity of the contents.  In both
www.alsa-project.org and alsa.opensrc.org, many many information are
rotten and obsoleted.  We'd need clean ups at first...

Anyway, volunteers are greatly apreciated.  It's a Wiki, and you are
free to edit!  :)


Takashi

Re: Will the real alsa wiki please stand up?

[Jaroslav Kysela]

On Sat, 26 May 2007, j t wrote:

> There something at:
> 
> http://bugtrack.alsa-project.org/main/index.php/Main_Page
> 
> which thinks it's the alsa wiki, and there something at:
> 
> http://alsa.opensrc.org/Main_Page
> 
> which alsa thinks it's the alsa wiki.
> 
> Well, devs, which is the imposter? And would it be a good idea to
> reduce the number of distinct alsa wikis to something smaller, perhaps
> "1"?

Official ALSA wiki is using official ALSA domain. The wiki at opensrc.org 
is unofficial (and it's stated there on first page).

						Jaroslav

-----
Jaroslav Kysela <perex@suse.cz>
Linux Kernel Sound Maintainer
ALSA Project, SUSE Labs

Re: Will the real alsa wiki please stand up?

[Eliot Blennerhassett]

I'm confused again.  Which is the real official wiki?

This one "AlsaWiki"
http://bugtrack.alsa-project.org/main/index.php/Main_Page
(MediaWiki, last change 25 July)
 
OR

This one  "Official Alsa Wiki for Developers"
https://bugtrack.alsa-project.org/wiki/wikka.php?wakka=AlsaWiki
(Powered by Wikka Wakka Wiki) approx 28 content pages, last change 24 July)

It was made clear a while ago that this is the UNofficial wiki:
http://alsa.opensrc.org/index.php/Main_Page
(MediaWiki)

Gosh!, how much fragmentation do we need????

If 3 wikis really are necessary, can we at least have links to the others on 
the main page of each wiki, and explanation of which is most approriate for 
different content?

thanks

Eliot

Re: Will the real alsa wiki please stand up?

[Takashi Iwai]

At Fri, 27 Jul 2007 09:40:45 +1200,
Eliot Blennerhassett wrote:
> 
> I'm confused again.  Which is the real official wiki?
> 
> This one "AlsaWiki"
> http://bugtrack.alsa-project.org/main/index.php/Main_Page
> (MediaWiki, last change 25 July)

This one.

>  
> OR
> 
> This one  "Official Alsa Wiki for Developers"
> https://bugtrack.alsa-project.org/wiki/wikka.php?wakka=AlsaWiki
> (Powered by Wikka Wakka Wiki) approx 28 content pages, last change 24 July)

This one for developers only, which has been existed since long time
ago.

> It was made clear a while ago that this is the UNofficial wiki:
> http://alsa.opensrc.org/index.php/Main_Page
> (MediaWiki)
> 
> Gosh!, how much fragmentation do we need????
> 
> If 3 wikis really are necessary, can we at least have links to the others on 
> the main page of each wiki, and explanation of which is most approriate for 
> different content?

Only the first one is the official wiki.  The developers wiki should
be gone after migration, IMO.  The unofficial Wiki is literally
unofficial, which we can do nothing directly.  It'd been asked to
migrate both of them, but no action has been done yet.


Takashi

Re: Will the real alsa wiki please stand up?

[Eliot Blennerhassett]

OK,  I'll bite, see below.

On Friday 27 July 2007 21:40:09 Takashi Iwai wrote:
> At Fri, 27 Jul 2007 09:40:45 +1200,
> Eliot Blennerhassett wrote:
> > I'm confused again.  Which is the real official wiki?
> > http://bugtrack.alsa-project.org/main/index.php/Main_Page

As far as migrating the website on to this wiki, it would be very helpful to 
have a list of the source pages and their wiki equivalents that need 
migrating, otherwise it is very hard for a volunteer to pick a page and do 
it. E.g.  page [[WebMigration]] contains

Volunteers need to migrate these pages.
Pick a page below, and create the matching wiki page. Once you have done this, 
delete the line from here

[http://alsa-project.org/applications.php]  [[Applications]] 
... etc


> > https://bugtrack.alsa-project.org/wiki/wikka.php?wakka=AlsaWiki
>
> This one for developers only, which has been existed since long time
> ago.

> Only the first one is the official wiki.  The developers wiki should
> be gone after migration, IMO.  The unofficial Wiki is literally
> unofficial, which we can do nothing directly.  It'd been asked to
> migrate both of them, but no action has been done yet.

Ingo Mueller wrote:
> If you provide a rough plan of how to
> merge these wikis and you are willing to spent time in its realization,
> I'm sure that people will greatly appriciate it!

Is there a reason NOT to migrate the 'developers only' wiki on 
alsa-project.org into the 'official wiki' .  Converting from wikkawakka to 
mediawiki on the way.

If the (currently active) contributors to the developer wiki agreed, I'd be 
willing to do the grunt work of moving the pages. but the page 'owners' might 
prefer to do the copy and keep the  authorship intact...

JamesCourtierDutton 15 pages
LiamGirdwood 2 or 3 pages
ClemensLadisch 1 page
NormanSchleicher 2 pages
JohnUtz 3 pages
JaroslavKysela 5 pages

And, in the official wiki,  would we want a separate Development: namespace?
Something the wiki-master needs to create.
or is a Development: category a better way to go.

At the end of this migration, we'd be down to 2 wikis, both MediaWiki, so a 
future merge would be easier(???)
====================================
Integrating official and unofficial is a bridge to cross...later.
However, setting up some interwiki mappings between the 2 would make it easier 
to crosslink:

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:Interwiki_linking

cheers
.--
Eliot 

Re: Will the real alsa wiki please stand up?

[Takashi Iwai]

At Tue, 31 Jul 2007 21:54:54 +1200,
Eliot Blennerhassett wrote:
> 
> On Friday 27 July 2007 21:40:09 Takashi Iwai wrote:
> > At Fri, 27 Jul 2007 09:40:45 +1200,
> > Eliot Blennerhassett wrote:
> > > I'm confused again.  Which is the real official wiki?
> > > http://bugtrack.alsa-project.org/main/index.php/Main_Page
> 
> As far as migrating the website on to this wiki, it would be very helpful to 
> have a list of the source pages and their wiki equivalents that need 
> migrating, otherwise it is very hard for a volunteer to pick a page and do 
> it. E.g.  page [[WebMigration]] contains
> 
> Volunteers need to migrate these pages.
> Pick a page below, and create the matching wiki page. Once you have done this, 
> delete the line from here
> 
> [http://alsa-project.org/applications.php]  [[Applications]] 
> ... etc

Yes, that's a good idea.  Care to add it on the top?


> > > https://bugtrack.alsa-project.org/wiki/wikka.php?wakka=AlsaWiki
> >
> > This one for developers only, which has been existed since long time
> > ago.
> 
> > Only the first one is the official wiki.  The developers wiki should
> > be gone after migration, IMO.  The unofficial Wiki is literally
> > unofficial, which we can do nothing directly.  It'd been asked to
> > migrate both of them, but no action has been done yet.
> 
> Ingo Mueller wrote:
> > If you provide a rough plan of how to
> > merge these wikis and you are willing to spent time in its realization,
> > I'm sure that people will greatly appriciate it!
> 
> Is there a reason NOT to migrate the 'developers only' wiki on 
> alsa-project.org into the 'official wiki' .  Converting from wikkawakka to 
> mediawiki on the way.
> 
> If the (currently active) contributors to the developer wiki agreed, I'd be 
> willing to do the grunt work of moving the pages.

That'd be greatly appreciated.


> but the page 'owners' might 
> prefer to do the copy and keep the  authorship intact...
> 
> JamesCourtierDutton 15 pages
> LiamGirdwood 2 or 3 pages
> ClemensLadisch 1 page
> NormanSchleicher 2 pages
> JohnUtz 3 pages
> JaroslavKysela 5 pages

Any of you have objections about this?
(sorry I couldn't find Norman's address...)


> And, in the official wiki,  would we want a separate Development: namespace?
> Something the wiki-master needs to create.
> or is a Development: category a better way to go.

I think the catgoery should suffice.  But I'm no Wiki expert al all,
so would like to hear from other skilled guys.


> At the end of this migration, we'd be down to 2 wikis, both MediaWiki, so a 
> future merge would be easier(???)
> ====================================
> Integrating official and unofficial is a bridge to cross...later.
> However, setting up some interwiki mappings between the 2 would make it easier 
> to crosslink:
> 
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:Interwiki_linking

Thanks for the information!


Takashi

Re: Will the real alsa wiki please stand up?

[Ingo Müller]

Hi!

Takashi Iwai schrieb:
>> As far as migrating the website on to this wiki, it would be very helpful to 
>> have a list of the source pages and their wiki equivalents that need 
>> migrating, otherwise it is very hard for a volunteer to pick a page and do 
>> it. E.g.  page [[WebMigration]] contains
>>
>> Volunteers need to migrate these pages.
>> Pick a page below, and create the matching wiki page. Once you have done this, 
>> delete the line from here
>>
>> [http://alsa-project.org/applications.php]  [[Applications]] 
>> ... etc
> 
> Yes, that's a good idea.  Care to add it on the top?

I agree with that, too. My question: who knows the current ALSA web site
well enough to fill this list?

>> If the (currently active) contributors to the developer wiki agreed, I'd be 
>> willing to do the grunt work of moving the pages.
> 
> That'd be greatly appreciated.
> 
>> but the page 'owners' might 
>> prefer to do the copy and keep the  authorship intact...
>>
>> JamesCourtierDutton 15 pages
>> LiamGirdwood 2 or 3 pages
>> ClemensLadisch 1 page
>> NormanSchleicher 2 pages
>> JohnUtz 3 pages
>> JaroslavKysela 5 pages
> 
> Any of you have objections about this?
> (sorry I couldn't find Norman's address...)

When I moved the unofficial wiki from an old wiki software to a new
MediaWiki wiki, we decided that it was not worth the extra effort to
keep the authorship intact. Instead, there is a note on the wiki's about
page which linked to a mirror of the old wiki.

If it is possible to track down the authors (like you did above), you
could also just list them on an extra page (maybe "AlsaWiki:Authors")
showing the contributions of these authors to the old wiki. Then,
whenever you move a page to the new wiki, you could link to this page in
the comment ("Moved from old wiki. For details about authorships see
[[AlsaWiki:Authors]].").

>> And, in the official wiki,  would we want a separate Development: namespace?
>> Something the wiki-master needs to create.
>> or is a Development: category a better way to go.
> 
> I think the catgoery should suffice.  But I'm no Wiki expert al all,
> so would like to hear from other skilled guys.

Quote from http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:Namespace_manager:
"Generally, namespaces should not be used to categorize content of the
same type -- that is what categories are for." On the other hand, new
namespaces should be created, "if you have a type of content which you
feel is substantially different from the content in the existing
namespaces". Im not sure whether this is the case with the developer
content...

Also, there are some technical things that come along with using a
namespace:

* A different namespace could have a different visual appearence to be
distinguished from other namespace (see
http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Using_custom_namespaces#Custom_colors_for_custom_namespaces)

* A namespace can be searched exclusively which can't be done by a
category. Analogicly, the simple search can be set to only search the
"Main:" namespace (default) or more namespaces.

The downside of a namespace is, that they can only be configured by
administrators (changig config files manually). As this has only to be
done once, I think that shouldn't be that much of a problem.

I think, the choise of using a namespace or a category comes down to the
question how different the content and its audience is. If it is really
different, it should be excluded from the default search (so newbies
won't stumble on it by accident), distinguished visually and so on. In
that case, a namespace is what we need. If it makes sense to be
integrated with the rest of the wiki, a category is the better choise.
Unfortunately, I don't know the content of the two wikis well enough to
make that choise...

>> At the end of this migration, we'd be down to 2 wikis, both MediaWiki, so a 
>> future merge would be easier(???)

Indeed, there are in- and export functions since a couple of version of
mediawiki.

>> ====================================
>> Integrating official and unofficial is a bridge to cross...later.
>> However, setting up some interwiki mappings between the 2 would make it easier 
>> to crosslink:
>>
>> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:Interwiki_linking
> 
> Thanks for the information!
> 
> 
> Takashi

I'm happy that someone initiated a discussion on that topic again. Maybe
I can get motivated to join the merging process after I finished my
exams :-)

Greets, Ingo

Re: Will the real alsa wiki please stand up?

[Eliot Blennerhassett]

On Friday 03 August 2007 00:50:43 Takashi Iwai wrote:
> At Tue, 31 Jul 2007 21:54:54 +1200,
>
> Eliot Blennerhassett wrote:
> > If the (currently active) contributors to the developer wiki agreed, I'd
> > be willing to do the grunt work of moving the pages.
>
> That'd be greatly appreciated.
>
> > but the page 'owners' might
> > prefer to do the copy and keep the  authorship intact...
> >
> > JamesCourtierDutton 15 pages
> > LiamGirdwood 2 or 3 pages
> > ClemensLadisch 1 page
> > NormanSchleicher 2 pages
> > JohnUtz 3 pages
> > JaroslavKysela 5 pages
>
> Any of you have objections about this?
> (sorry I couldn't find Norman's address...)

If I don't hear back otherwise, I will start some time next week copying the 
pages, with backlink and attribution

> > And, in the official wiki,  would we want a separate Development:
> > namespace? Something the wiki-master needs to create.
> > or is a Development: category a better way to go.

I created development category  (just need to add [[Category:Development]] to 
any page.  
http://bugtrack.alsa-project.org/main/index.php/Category:Development

> I think the catgoery should suffice.  But I'm no Wiki expert al all,
> so would like to hear from other skilled guys.

However it seems there is already a namespace "AlsaWiki" which contains only 2 
pages. By default its excluded from search.  Maybe this was intended for the 
alsa dev wiki content (Jaroslav?)

http://bugtrack.alsa-project.org/main/index.php/AlsaWiki:About
http://bugtrack.alsa-project.org/main/index.php/AlsaWiki:Developer_Zone

--
Eliot

Re: Will the real alsa wiki please stand up?

[Ingo Müller]

Hi!

Eliot Blennerhassett schrieb:
> However it seems there is already a namespace "AlsaWiki" which contains only 2 
> pages. By default its excluded from search.  Maybe this was intended for the 
> alsa dev wiki content (Jaroslav?)
> 
> http://bugtrack.alsa-project.org/main/index.php/AlsaWiki:About
> http://bugtrack.alsa-project.org/main/index.php/AlsaWiki:Developer_Zone

The AlsaWiki namespace is the project namespace as the wiki's name is
"AlsaWiki" (wikipedias project namespace is "Wikipedia:...". The project
namespace is for articles about the wiki itself and its organisation and
should not be used for articles about the topic of the wiki.

Greets, Ingo

Re: Will the real alsa wiki please stand up?

[Jaroslav Kysela]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: TEXT/PLAIN, Size: 905 bytes --]

On Fri, 3 Aug 2007, Ingo Müller wrote:

> Hi!
> 
> Eliot Blennerhassett schrieb:
> > However it seems there is already a namespace "AlsaWiki" which contains only 2 
> > pages. By default its excluded from search.  Maybe this was intended for the 
> > alsa dev wiki content (Jaroslav?)
> > 
> > http://bugtrack.alsa-project.org/main/index.php/AlsaWiki:About
> > http://bugtrack.alsa-project.org/main/index.php/AlsaWiki:Developer_Zone
> 
> The AlsaWiki namespace is the project namespace as the wiki's name is
> "AlsaWiki" (wikipedias project namespace is "Wikipedia:...". The project
> namespace is for articles about the wiki itself and its organisation and
> should not be used for articles about the topic of the wiki.

Thanks. I moved this page from AlsaWiki namespace.

						Jaroslav

-----
Jaroslav Kysela <perex@suse.cz>
Linux Kernel Sound Maintainer
ALSA Project, SUSE Labs

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