[B.A.T.M.A.N.] Fwd: Re: Debian extra modules

[B.A.T.M.A.N.] Fwd: Re: Debian extra modules

[Holger Levsen]

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Hi,

I've shortened Gregs mail to only have the relevant info for this list :-)
Full mail is at http://lists.debian.org/debian-kernel/2009/10/msg00236.html

regards,
	Holger

----------  Forwarded Message  ----------

subject: Re: Debian extra modules
date: Dienstag, 6. Oktober 2009
from: Greg KH <greg@kroah.com>
to: Ben Hutchings <ben@decadent.org.uk>
cc: debian-kernel@lists.debian.org

On Sun, Oct 04, 2009 at 04:58:15PM +0100, Ben Hutchings wrote:
[...]
> batman
> ------
> 
> A mesh routing system.  Maybe a candidate for staging; try asking
> upstream.
> 
> Debian: http://packages.debian.org/source/sid/batmand
> Upstream: http://www.open-mesh.net/browser/trunk/batman/linux/modules
> 
> batman-adv
> ----------
> 
> A mesh bridging system.  As for batman.
> 
> Debian: http://packages.debian.org/source/sid/batman-adv-kernelland
> Upstream: http://www.open-mesh.net/browser/trunk/batman-adv-kernelland

Please post this code, if it's a module, and the developers want it
upstream, I'll be glad to take it in staging.

[...]
thanks,

greg k-h


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Re: [B.A.T.M.A.N.] Fwd: Re: Debian extra modules

[Sven Eckelmann]

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Holger Levsen wrote:
> I've shortened Gregs mail to only have the relevant info for this list :-)
> Full mail is at http://lists.debian.org/debian-kernel/2009/10/msg00236.html

> > batman
> > ------
> >
> > A mesh routing system.  Maybe a candidate for staging; try asking
> > upstream.
> >
> > Debian: http://packages.debian.org/source/sid/batmand
> > Upstream: http://www.open-mesh.net/browser/trunk/batman/linux/modules
As far as I know it isn't a part which is currently not targeted for linux-2.6 
(staging or netdev) as this isn't self contained, but just a "hack" to improve 
gateway speed with batmand. Marek has to decide what to do with it further.

> > batman-adv
> > ----------
> >
> > A mesh bridging system.  As for batman.
> >
> > Debian: http://packages.debian.org/source/sid/batman-adv-kernelland
> > Upstream: http://www.open-mesh.net/browser/trunk/batman-adv-kernelland
> 
> Please post this code, if it's a module, and the developers want it
> upstream, I'll be glad to take it in staging.
This one should go staging sometime in the near future. We are in contact with 
Greg KH and some preparations are currently done to make it fit into staging 
and get it to a review for linux netdev soon.

Parts which are important:
 * TODO list for staging inside batman-adv folder
 * removed compat.h and remaining LINUX_VERSION_CODE (net_device_ops,
   unregister_chrdev)
 * clean Makefile and Kconfig
 * anyone who says how the further development should be done
 * anyone who sends the patch to Greg (probably Marek)

Also a open question is how the "issue" of the closed mailing list should be 
fixed. Vger doesn't seem to want us before we are successfully reviewed by the 
netdev maintainer. Moving the mailinglist every month doesn't seem to be a 
good idea. Opening this mailinglist could according to Marek create this ml 
useless as there is a big amount of spam send to it. There is a third option 
of having the ml semi-open with moderators for mails send by non-subscribers. 
But we have to decide who does the moderation.

@Marek: Is the postfix server configured to do greylisting? If yes, do you 
have a some statistics about how many spam mails come through and will be 
kicked out by the mailinglist system? If it isn't that much I would do some 
moderation for some months before we maybe move to a better option.

Best regards,
	Sven

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Re: [B.A.T.M.A.N.] Fwd: Re: Debian extra modules

[Marek Lindner]

On Tuesday 06 October 2009 19:55:46 Sven Eckelmann wrote:
> As far as I know it isn't a part which is currently not targeted for
>  linux-2.6 (staging or netdev) as this isn't self contained, but just a
>  "hack" to improve gateway speed with batmand. Marek has to decide what to
>  do with it further.

That is a qood question. It is self-contained as well but I don't think it 
makes much sense bringing it into staging as it is just a "hack".  :)
I'm not sure what the best path forward might be. Does it hurt keeping it the 
way it is ?


> Parts which are important:
>  * TODO list for staging inside batman-adv folder
>  * removed compat.h and remaining LINUX_VERSION_CODE (net_device_ops,
>    unregister_chrdev)
>  * clean Makefile and Kconfig
>  * anyone who says how the further development should be done
>  * anyone who sends the patch to Greg (probably Marek)

I think most of the things listed here are already done. It just needs to come 
together. I'm confident that this will happen soon.


> @Marek: Is the postfix server configured to do greylisting? If yes, do you
> have a some statistics about how many spam mails come through and will be
> kicked out by the mailinglist system? If it isn't that much I would do some
> moderation for some months before we maybe move to a better option.

The postifx setup is quite simple at the moment: It rejects all unknown / 
unregistered mail. Greylisting is not in place yet. I quickly ran pflogsumm to 
give you an impression:

Per-Day Traffic Summary
    date          received  delivered   deferred    bounced     rejected
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    Sep 27 2009       110        107        153         16       4874
    Sep 28 2009       170        855        298         56       6894
    Sep 29 2009       229       1235        379         90       6757
    Sep 30 2009       176        525        420         38       7477
    Oct  1 2009       187        222        377         20       7913
    Oct  2 2009       132        132        414         17       8086
    Oct  3 2009       112        117        374         18       7790
    Oct  4 2009       128        658        294         42       6158 
    Oct  5 2009       243       1634        509         97       7657

But I tend to agree with you: We might have to face the fact that we have to 
improve the SPAM filter on our end and open the list. As a first step we could 
install greylisting and have a bunch of moderators to see how that goes.

@Jacob: How do you feel about that ?

@Andrew: Would you be willing to join the moderators group ?

Regards,
Marek

Re: [B.A.T.M.A.N.] Fwd: Re: Debian extra modules

[Andrew Lunn]

> > Parts which are important:
> >  * TODO list for staging inside batman-adv folder
> >  * removed compat.h and remaining LINUX_VERSION_CODE (net_device_ops,
> >    unregister_chrdev)
> >  * clean Makefile and Kconfig
> >  * anyone who says how the further development should be done
> >  * anyone who sends the patch to Greg (probably Marek)
> 
> I think most of the things listed here are already done. It just
> needs to come together. I'm confident that this will happen soon.

I have Makefile and Kconfig in my git tree. My tree is also up to date
with respect to SVN on 09/27/09 02:21:54 which was the last commit to
batman-adv. I would like to push some of the changes out of my git
tree and into SVN, just to make it simpler for merging backwards and
forwards. I guess i will mail Marek a diff sometime today.

          Andrew

Re: [B.A.T.M.A.N.] Fwd: Re: Debian extra modules

[Andrew Lunn]

> The postifx setup is quite simple at the moment: It rejects all unknown / 
> unregistered mail. Greylisting is not in place yet. I quickly ran pflogsumm to 
> give you an impression:
> 
> Per-Day Traffic Summary
>     date          received  delivered   deferred    bounced     rejected
>     --------------------------------------------------------------------
>     Sep 27 2009       110        107        153         16       4874
>     Sep 28 2009       170        855        298         56       6894
>     Sep 29 2009       229       1235        379         90       6757
>     Sep 30 2009       176        525        420         38       7477
>     Oct  1 2009       187        222        377         20       7913
>     Oct  2 2009       132        132        414         17       8086
>     Oct  3 2009       112        117        374         18       7790
>     Oct  4 2009       128        658        294         42       6158 
>     Oct  5 2009       243       1634        509         97       7657

I don't understand these figures. Ah, this is for the complete mail
server. That explains why there was say 128 received on Oct 4, yet
only a handful in the list archive.

> But I tend to agree with you: We might have to face the fact that we
> have to improve the SPAM filter on our end and open the list. As a
> first step we could install greylisting and have a bunch of
> moderators to see how that goes.

Do you at least have spamassassin running? It would be interesting to
see how many of the rejected emails spamassassin also decided were
spam. Could you configure postfix to keep a copy of the rejected. I
can then manually perform some tests with spamassassin and see how
good it is.

      Andrew

Re: [B.A.T.M.A.N.] Fwd: Re: Debian extra modules

[Marek Lindner]

On Tuesday 06 October 2009 22:02:18 Andrew Lunn wrote:
> I don't understand these figures. Ah, this is for the complete mail
> server. That explains why there was say 128 received on Oct 4, yet
> only a handful in the list archive.

Well, these include _all_ mail deliveries (postmaster, listmaster, root, trac 
changes, etc).


> Do you at least have spamassassin running? It would be interesting to
> see how many of the rejected emails spamassassin also decided were
> spam. Could you configure postfix to keep a copy of the rejected. I
> can then manually perform some tests with spamassassin and see how
> good it is.

No spamassassin as well.

Actually, spending a lot of time on the mail setup is exactly what I did not 
want to do. I have my hands full with other stuff. But I gladly delegate the 
lists.open-mesh.net domain to everybody that wants to deal with it.

Regards,
Marek

Re: [B.A.T.M.A.N.] Fwd: Re: Debian extra modules

[Jacob Marble]

> But I tend to agree with you: We might have to face the fact that we have to
> improve the SPAM filter on our end and open the list. As a first step we could
> install greylisting and have a bunch of moderators to see how that goes.
>
> @Jacob: How do you feel about that ?

That sounds like a good idea, as long as it is a temporary (< 1year)
solution.  Certainly better than changing the list, and then changing
it again.

Re: [B.A.T.M.A.N.] Fwd: Re: Debian extra modules

[Sven Eckelmann]

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Marek Lindner wrote:
> That is a qood question. It is self-contained as well but I don't think it
> makes much sense bringing it into staging as it is just a "hack".  :)
> I'm not sure what the best path forward might be. Does it hurt keeping it
>  the way it is ?
Sry, doesn't want to upset you, but wanted to say that batgat isn't a complete 
solution like batman-adv, but an extension to reduce the load on the gateway. 
I don't think that it would hurt at the moment to leave it as it is. Have not 
attended Linux Plumber Conf 2009 - so don't know what was discussed there. As 
co-maintainer (Holger is the actual maintainer) of that package in Debian it 
doesn't hurt me at the moment.

> > Parts which are important:
> >  * TODO list for staging inside batman-adv folder
> >  * removed compat.h and remaining LINUX_VERSION_CODE (net_device_ops,
> >    unregister_chrdev)
> >  * clean Makefile and Kconfig
> >  * anyone who says how the further development should be done
> >  * anyone who sends the patch to Greg (probably Marek)
> 
> I think most of the things listed here are already done. It just needs to
>  come together. I'm confident that this will happen soon.
I categorized them in my head under todo because nothing of it is currently 
visible to the user. So some parts could be marked as "put them in the right 
place".

[...]
> The postifx setup is quite simple at the moment: It rejects all unknown /
> unregistered mail. Greylisting is not in place yet. I quickly ran pflogsumm
>  to give you an impression:
> 
> Per-Day Traffic Summary
>     date          received  delivered   deferred    bounced     rejected
>     --------------------------------------------------------------------
>     Sep 27 2009       110        107        153         16       4874
>     Sep 28 2009       170        855        298         56       6894
>     Sep 29 2009       229       1235        379         90       6757
>     Sep 30 2009       176        525        420         38       7477
>     Oct  1 2009       187        222        377         20       7913
>     Oct  2 2009       132        132        414         17       8086
>     Oct  3 2009       112        117        374         18       7790
>     Oct  4 2009       128        658        294         42       6158
>     Oct  5 2009       243       1634        509         97       7657
> 
> But I tend to agree with you: We might have to face the fact that we have
>  to improve the SPAM filter on our end and open the list. As a first step
>  we could install greylisting and have a bunch of moderators to see how
>  that goes.
Lets hope that greylisting would do a good job here as it is quite easy to 
setup (just done that for exim using greylistd - so cannot say that it is also 
that easy for postfix, but there is a package called postgrey). I never feel 
real happy about the filtering of spamassassines bayesian analysis as it marks 
important mails for me as spam from time to time.

Best regards,
	Sven

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Re: [B.A.T.M.A.N.] Fwd: Re: Debian extra modules

[Andrew Lunn]

> I never feel real happy about the filtering of spamassassines
> bayesian analysis as it marks important mails for me as spam from
> time to time.

You are not forced to use the bayesian analysis part of
spamassassin. It has lots of there methods for detecting spam as well
as Bayesian.

   Andrew

Re: [B.A.T.M.A.N.] Fwd: Re: Debian extra modules

[Marek Lindner]

On Wednesday 07 October 2009 01:37:25 Sven Eckelmann wrote:
> Sry, doesn't want to upset you, but wanted to say that batgat isn't a
>  complete solution like batman-adv, but an extension to reduce the load on
>  the gateway. I don't think that it would hurt at the moment to leave it as
>  it is. Have not attended Linux Plumber Conf 2009 - so don't know what was
>  discussed there. As co-maintainer (Holger is the actual maintainer) of
>  that package in Debian it doesn't hurt me at the moment.

Don't worry - I did not feel offended at all. :)
Ok, then we leave it untouched.

 
> I categorized them in my head under todo because nothing of it is currently
> visible to the user. So some parts could be marked as "put them in the
>  right place".

I think we should maintain a wiki page about the progress, so that others can 
easily follow. What do you think ?


> Lets hope that greylisting would do a good job here as it is quite easy to
> setup (just done that for exim using greylistd - so cannot say that it is
>  also that easy for postfix, but there is a package called postgrey). I
>  never feel real happy about the filtering of spamassassines bayesian
>  analysis as it marks important mails for me as spam from time to time.

I just installed & configured postgrey. Let's see how that goes in the next 
days and then we can try to open the list ?!

Regards,
Marek

Re: [B.A.T.M.A.N.] Fwd: Re: Debian extra modules

[Andrew Lunn]

On Tue, Oct 06, 2009 at 01:28:04PM +0200, Holger Levsen wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I've shortened Gregs mail to only have the relevant info for this list :-)
> Full mail is at http://lists.debian.org/debian-kernel/2009/10/msg00236.html
> 
> regards,
> 	Holger

Hi Holger

We are already in contact with GregKH about getting into staging. We
are just missing an open mailing list we can use for receive feedback
from the mainline community. Our current list is subscriber only. Once
we have an open list we will be ready to post to GregKH.

Thanks for your interest in BATMAN and getting it into mainline.

         Andrew

Re: [B.A.T.M.A.N.] Debian extra modules

[Sven Eckelmann]

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Holger Levsen wrote:
> I've shortened Gregs mail to only have the relevant info for this list :-)
> Full mail is at http://lists.debian.org/debian-kernel/2009/10/msg00236.html
There was an announcement some hours ago which explains the (possible) 
backgrounds further[1]. It looks like the packages which builds binary 
packages from out-of-the-tree modules gets removed and it is now preferred to 
send the source upstream to staging by the author of the module, patch the 
kernel sources to include the must-have kernel modules or use the dkms[2] to 
build kernel modules.

I will search for some more information what must be done to support dkms and 
send some patches if it looks promising for upstream. There is currently only 
one package[3] in Debian which supports it. So lets see if we can add a second 
and third one :)

Best regards,
	Sven

[1] http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2009/10/msg00003.html
[2] http://linux.dell.com/projects.shtml#dkms
[3] http://packages.debian.org/squeeze/openafs-modules-dkms

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Re: [B.A.T.M.A.N.] Debian extra modules

[Holger Levsen]

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Hi Sven,

On Dienstag, 20. Oktober 2009, Sven Eckelmann wrote:
> I will search for some more information what must be done to support dkms

http://lists.debian.org/debian-kernel/2009/10/msg00683.html

:-)


regards,
	Holger

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Re: [B.A.T.M.A.N.] Debian extra modules

[Sven Eckelmann]

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Holger Levsen wrote:
> On Dienstag, 20. Oktober 2009, Sven Eckelmann wrote:
> > I will search for some more information what must be done to support dkms
> 
> http://lists.debian.org/debian-kernel/2009/10/msg00683.html

Thanks. The packages[1,2] are now in Debian unstable. You must have the
headers and kbuild for your running kernel installed (for example over
linux-header-2.6 which is recommended by dkms). The rest is handled by dkms.
Binary precompiled packages will disappear somewhere in the future when
linux-modules-extra-2.6[3] gets removed..

I don't think that the dkms configurations[4,5] are useful for upstream at the
moment.

Best regards,
	Sven

[1] http://packages.debian.org/sid/batman-adv-dkms
[2] http://packages.debian.org/sid/batmand-gateway-dkms
[3] http://packages.qa.debian.org/l/linux-modules-extra-2.6.html
[4] http://git.debian.org/?p=collab-maint/batman-adv-kernelland.git;a=blob;f=debian/dkms.conf.in;hb=master
[5] http://git.debian.org/?p=collab-maint/batmand.git;a=blob;f=debian/dkms.conf.in;hb=master

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