[B.A.T.M.A.N.] point me to some OSI layer diagrams if possible ?

[B.A.T.M.A.N.] point me to some OSI layer diagrams if possible ?

[George Sanders]

I am researching meshes/MANETs, and the accompanying 802.11s/HWMP/olsr/etc.

Before asking any specific questions, I wonder if someone could point me to some proper OSI
diagrams that I cannot find - specifically:



- can someone draw, or direct me to, an OSI diagram showing an 802.11a/b/g/n network using 
plain old vanilla 802.11s + HWMP (no OLSR) to support an IP network ?



Then, for comparison:



- can someone draw, or direct me to, an OSI diagram showing an 802.11a/b/g/n network using
ONLY BATMAN (no 802.11s) ... ?



Finally, in my research I came across this very interesting conversation from 2006:

http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg08218.html

and I wonder, has that question:

"I agree, but we may still be able to pull it off without having to messup the stack."

been answered yet ?  Or is there still argument over whether or not some implementations require "discussion"
between components on different OSI layers ?

Thank you.


      

Re: [B.A.T.M.A.N.] point me to some OSI layer diagrams if possible ?

[L. Aaron Kaplan]

(CCing the OLSR list, since George also asked the same question there but got no answer yet)

On Dec 9, 2009, at 9:42 PM, George Sanders wrote:

> I am researching meshes/MANETs, and the accompanying 802.11s/HWMP/olsr/etc.
> 
> Before asking any specific questions, I wonder if someone could point me to some proper OSI
> diagrams that I cannot find - specifically:
> 
> 

ok, here is my attempt.....

+--------------+
| Application  |  7
+--------------+
| presentation |  6    E_DOES_NOT_REALLY_EXIST 
+--------------+
| session      |  5    E_DOES_NOT_REALLY_EXIST
+--------------+
| transport    |  4
+--------------+-----------------------------+
| IP, OLSR.org, B.A.T.M.A.N layer 3 version  |  3    OLSR.org's OLSR implemenation is located here
+-------------------------------------------------------------+
| link, 802.11s, B.A.T.M.A.N  layer 2 version, OLPC's  802.11s|  2    the HWMP and all the 80.211s stuff resides here. 802.11a/b/g/n resides here. Madwifi, ath5k and ath9k reside here. There is massive room for improvement on the Wi-Fi level!
+--------------------------------------------+----------------+
| phy                                        |  1    this part of the stack is definitely a problem for any routing protocol [*]
+--------------------------------------------+



[*] Much of the discussion focuses on "protocol $bla is better than $foo" but actually the Wi-Fi layer 2 and 1 could need massive improvements!  It is not the routing protocol on higher levels which matters. Wi-Fi per se was not intended to scale so high as we use it in community Wi-Fi networks :)
In case layer 1 and 2 were very good and stable, we would be able to run almost any protocol on top .





> 
> - can someone draw, or direct me to, an OSI diagram showing an 802.11a/b/g/n network using 
> plain old vanilla 802.11s + HWMP (no OLSR) to support an IP network ?
> 
> 
> 
> Then, for comparison:
> 
> 
> 
> - can someone draw, or direct me to, an OSI diagram showing an 802.11a/b/g/n network using
> ONLY BATMAN (no 802.11s) ... ?
> 
> 
Have to ask back: which version do you mean? 

Please see: http://www.open-mesh.net/wiki/BranchesExplained


> 
> Finally, in my research I came across this very interesting conversation from 2006:
> 
> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg08218.html
> 
> and I wonder, has that question:
> 
> "I agree, but we may still be able to pull it off without having to messup the stack."
> 
> been answered yet ?  Or is there still argument over whether or not some implementations require "discussion"
> between components on different OSI layers ?
> 

In my personal opinion, the more we can get *standardized* "hints" from the lower layers (especially Wi-Fi), the better any routing metric can become.
In OLSR.org the metric calculations were offloaded to a plugin architecture so you are quite free in this respect. I guess there is something similar in some versions of B.A.T.M.A.N. and I am sure people on the BATMAN list can actually answer this question better than me.


> Thank you.
> 

I hope it helped somewhat.

a.


PS: typing B.A.T.M.A.N. with all the "." dots all the time is... tiring. How about renaming it to "Span"? What came out of that discussion?

Re: [B.A.T.M.A.N.] point me to some OSI layer diagrams if possible ?

[Marek Lindner]

On Thursday 10 December 2009 07:40:53 L. Aaron Kaplan wrote:
> | link, 802.11s, B.A.T.M.A.N  layer 2 version, OLPC's  802.11s|  2    the
> | HWMP and all the 80.211s stuff resides here. 802.11a/b/g/n resides here.
> | Madwifi, ath5k and ath9k reside here. 

Sorry, but that is not (entirely) correct. It is no problem calling batman-adv 
a layer 2 protocol for the sake of simplicity (it deals with MAC addresses 
instead of IP addresses, etc ..). But if you mention batman-adv and 
802.11s/ath5k/etc in the same sentence you have to be more precise as they do 
not operate on the same layer.

batman-adv is layer 2.5 and runs on top of all ethernet based layer 2 
protocols which means you can run it over wireless 
(managed/adhoc/mesh/whatever mode), plain ethernet cable, VPNs and so on.

However, 802.11s is "true" layer 2 and as such is limited to the medium 
(wireless) as well as to the hardware & drivers. 


Regards,
Marek

Re: [B.A.T.M.A.N.] [Olsr-users] point me to some OSI layer diagramsif possible ?

[Bhat, Ishwara]

I thought 802.11s need not be strictly layer 2. Open source 11s driver
is on top of MAC drivers that comply with mac80211 framework. 

http://open80211s.com/trac

So it can be either layer 2 or 2.5.

Regards,
Ishwar

-----Original Message-----
From: olsr-users-bounces@lists.olsr.org
[mailto:olsr-users-bounces@lists.olsr.org] On Behalf Of Marek Lindner
Sent: Thursday, December 10, 2009 9:31 AM
To: b.a.t.m.a.n@lists.open-mesh.net
Cc: olsr list users mailing
Subject: Re: [Olsr-users] [B.A.T.M.A.N.] point me to some OSI layer
diagramsif possible ?

On Thursday 10 December 2009 07:40:53 L. Aaron Kaplan wrote:
> | link, 802.11s, B.A.T.M.A.N  layer 2 version, OLPC's  802.11s|  2
the
> | HWMP and all the 80.211s stuff resides here. 802.11a/b/g/n resides
here.
> | Madwifi, ath5k and ath9k reside here. 

Sorry, but that is not (entirely) correct. It is no problem calling
batman-adv 
a layer 2 protocol for the sake of simplicity (it deals with MAC
addresses 
instead of IP addresses, etc ..). But if you mention batman-adv and 
802.11s/ath5k/etc in the same sentence you have to be more precise as
they do 
not operate on the same layer.

batman-adv is layer 2.5 and runs on top of all ethernet based layer 2 
protocols which means you can run it over wireless 
(managed/adhoc/mesh/whatever mode), plain ethernet cable, VPNs and so
on.

However, 802.11s is "true" layer 2 and as such is limited to the medium 
(wireless) as well as to the hardware & drivers. 


Regards,
Marek

-- 
Olsr-users mailing list
Olsr-users@lists.olsr.org
http://lists.olsr.org/mailman/listinfo/olsr-users

Re: [B.A.T.M.A.N.] [Olsr-users] point me to some OSI layer diagramsif possible ?

[Marek Lindner]

On Thursday 10 December 2009 12:28:37 you wrote:
> I thought 802.11s need not be strictly layer 2. Open source 11s driver
> is on top of MAC drivers that comply with mac80211 framework.
> 
> http://open80211s.com/trac
> 
> So it can be either layer 2 or 2.5.

I'm no expert on this driver because I never really used it (just had a quick 
look through the code) but why do you think it is layer 2.5 ?

The page you provided clearly says:
open80211s is based on the mac80211 wireless stack and should run on any of 
the wireless cards that mac80211 supports.

Seems it does not run over ethernet/VPNs/other_layer2 ...

Maybe you confused it with the layers inside of the linux wifi stack ?

Regards,
Marek

Re: [B.A.T.M.A.N.] [Olsr-users] point me to some OSI layer diagramsif possible ?

[Bhat, Ishwara]

You are right.
Sorry about the confusion. It is more of wireless stack layering issue.

-----Original Message-----
From: Marek Lindner [mailto:lindner_marek@yahoo.de] 
Sent: Thursday, December 10, 2009 10:03 AM
To: Bhat, Ishwara
Cc: b.a.t.m.a.n@lists.open-mesh.net; olsr list users mailing
Subject: Re: [Olsr-users] [B.A.T.M.A.N.] point me to some OSI layer
diagramsif possible ?

On Thursday 10 December 2009 12:28:37 you wrote:
> I thought 802.11s need not be strictly layer 2. Open source 11s driver
> is on top of MAC drivers that comply with mac80211 framework.
> 
> http://open80211s.com/trac
> 
> So it can be either layer 2 or 2.5.

I'm no expert on this driver because I never really used it (just had a
quick 
look through the code) but why do you think it is layer 2.5 ?

The page you provided clearly says:
open80211s is based on the mac80211 wireless stack and should run on any
of 
the wireless cards that mac80211 supports.

Seems it does not run over ethernet/VPNs/other_layer2 ...

Maybe you confused it with the layers inside of the linux wifi stack ?

Regards,
Marek

Re: [B.A.T.M.A.N.] [Olsr-users] point me to some OSI layer diagramsif possible ?

[L. Aaron Kaplan]

On Dec 10, 2009, at 5:55 AM, Bhat, Ishwara wrote:

> 
> You are right.
> Sorry about the confusion. It is more of wireless stack layering issue.

Ok, and I truncated layer 2.5 down to 2 ;-)

>