[B.A.T.M.A.N.] Packet-Loss-Peaks in a Freifunk-Network

[B.A.T.M.A.N.] Packet-Loss-Peaks in a Freifunk-Network

[Jan Lühr]

Hello folks,

we spent some effort in measuring the stability on our freifunk-network. 
The networt itself consists of two networks.
- Tinc-VPN, batman-adv 2011.2.0
- fastd-VPN, batman-adv 2012.4.0

The fastd-network has two gateways (kif and fastd3) and two nodes. Each node is connected to both gateways. (Example output of batctl o see below)

Please take a look at: 
http://kbu.freifunk.net/index.php?title=Statistik#Ping_innerhalb_des_Freifunknetz
While the first chart shows the stability of a node connected directly via tincy, the later ones use fastd.

- Chart 2 shows kif -> node1
- Chart 3 shows fastd3 -> node1
- Chart 4 shows kif -> node2

We noticed a few, unusual things:
-> regardless of the link tested (kif or fastd3) and regardless of the node (node1, node2) small interruptions (loss-peaks) are appearing.
-> These peaks appear almost synchronous, a few "noise" comes from different vpn-links and node-wan-uplinks.
-> Since all links are wired, radio-noise won't have an impact
-> The losses appear in batman-adv 2011.2.0 as well as in batman-adv 2012.4.0.
Thus I suspect that batman-adv is triggering theses interruptions. 

Have you notice same problems in past? Is there a way to fix these outages?

Thanks,
Keep smiling
yanosz

# batctl o
[B.A.T.M.A.N. adv 2012.4.0, MainIF/MAC: wlan0-1/b2:48:7a:cb:2d:59 (bat0)]
  Originator      last-seen (#/255)           Nexthop [outgoingIF]:   Potential nexthops ...
             vpn3    0.130s   (255)              vpn3 [  mesh-vpn]:               kif (198)              vpn3 (255)
              kif    0.280s   (255)               kif [  mesh-vpn]:              vpn3 (  0)               kif (255)
            node1    2.700s   (225)               kif [  mesh-vpn]:               kif (225)              vpn3 (225)
            node2    3.110s   (223)               kif [  mesh-vpn]:               kif (223)              vpn3 (225)

Re: [B.A.T.M.A.N.] Packet-Loss-Peaks in a Freifunk-Network

[Marek Lindner]

On Thursday, January 03, 2013 22:16:32 Jan Lühr wrote:
> We noticed a few, unusual things:
> -> regardless of the link tested (kif or fastd3) and regardless of the node
> (node1, node2) small interruptions (loss-peaks) are appearing. -> These
> peaks appear almost synchronous, a few "noise" comes from different
> vpn-links and node-wan-uplinks. -> Since all links are wired, radio-noise
> won't have an impact
> -> The losses appear in batman-adv 2011.2.0 as well as in batman-adv
> 2012.4.0. Thus I suspect that batman-adv is triggering theses
> interruptions.

If you believe batman-adv is the culprit, please remove batman-adv from your 
test setup and repeat the exact same test. Otherwise we move into the realm of 
speculation.

Haven't heard of any "peak loss" due to batman-adv.

Cheers,
Marek

Re: [B.A.T.M.A.N.] Packet-Loss-Peaks in a Freifunk-Network

[Marek Lindner]

On Thursday, January 03, 2013 22:16:32 Jan Lühr wrote:
> We noticed a few, unusual things:
> -> regardless of the link tested (kif or fastd3) and regardless of the node
> (node1, node2) small interruptions (loss-peaks) are appearing. -> These
> peaks appear almost synchronous, a few "noise" comes from different
> vpn-links and node-wan-uplinks. -> Since all links are wired, radio-noise
> won't have an impact
> -> The losses appear in batman-adv 2011.2.0 as well as in batman-adv
> 2012.4.0. Thus I suspect that batman-adv is triggering theses
> interruptions.

If you believe batman-adv is the culprit, please remove batman-adv from your 
test setup and repeat the exact same test. Otherwise we move into the realm of 
speculation.

Haven't heard of any "peak loss" due to batman-adv.

Cheers,
Marek


PS: Forgot to click "reply to all", sorry for that.

Re: [B.A.T.M.A.N.] Packet-Loss-Peaks in a Freifunk-Network

[Jan Lühr]

Hello,

Am 03.01.2013 um 16:00 schrieb Marek Lindner:

> On Thursday, January 03, 2013 22:16:32 Jan Lühr wrote:
>> We noticed a few, unusual things:
>> -> regardless of the link tested (kif or fastd3) and regardless of the node
>> (node1, node2) small interruptions (loss-peaks) are appearing. -> These
>> peaks appear almost synchronous, a few "noise" comes from different
>> vpn-links and node-wan-uplinks. -> Since all links are wired, radio-noise
>> won't have an impact
>> -> The losses appear in batman-adv 2011.2.0 as well as in batman-adv
>> 2012.4.0. Thus I suspect that batman-adv is triggering theses
>> interruptions.
> 
> If you believe batman-adv is the culprit, please remove batman-adv from your 
> test setup and repeat the exact same test. Otherwise we move into the realm of 
> speculation.

Well, I started echoing on the underlying VPN-connection as well and changed the chart-titles for clearance:

In chart 4 and chart 5 RTT / Loss from kif.kbu to node-1 is measured. 
In chart 4 kif is sending ICMPv6 to the link-local address of bat0-interface - in chart 5 the link_local address of the underlying vpn-interface is used.

The loss-peaks appear in char 4 (bat0) only.

Thanks for your help,

Keep smiling
yanosz

> 
> PS: Forgot to click "reply to all", sorry for that.

Well, I set it f2up this list, since you're node subscribed. Sorry for not mentioning it.

Re: [B.A.T.M.A.N.] Packet-Loss-Peaks in a Freifunk-Network

[Marek Lindner]

On Thursday, January 03, 2013 23:52:42 Jan Lühr wrote:
> Well, I started echoing on the underlying VPN-connection as well and
> changed the chart-titles for clearance:
> 
> In chart 4 and chart 5 RTT / Loss from kif.kbu to node-1 is measured.
> In chart 4 kif is sending ICMPv6 to the link-local address of
> bat0-interface - in chart 5 the link_local address of the underlying
> vpn-interface is used.

All tests are from the same node to the same node using exactly the same means 
(protocols, etc) with the exception of batman-adv ? Sorry for my dumb question 
but your topology might be obvious to you but isn't for me (us?).

The spikes on your graphs show the packet loss ? How can we have a RTT < 50ms 
while experiencing packet loss ?

Cheers,
Marek

Re: [B.A.T.M.A.N.] Packet-Loss-Peaks in a Freifunk-Network

[Jan Lühr]

Hello,

Am 03.01.2013 um 17:05 schrieb Marek Lindner:

> On Thursday, January 03, 2013 23:52:42 Jan Lühr wrote:
>> Well, I started echoing on the underlying VPN-connection as well and
>> changed the chart-titles for clearance:
>> 
>> In chart 4 and chart 5 RTT / Loss from kif.kbu to node-1 is measured.
>> In chart 4 kif is sending ICMPv6 to the link-local address of
>> bat0-interface - in chart 5 the link_local address of the underlying
>> vpn-interface is used.
> 
> All tests are from the same node to the same node using exactly the same means 
> (protocols, etc) with the exception of batman-adv ? Sorry for my dumb question 
> but your topology might be obvious to you but isn't for me (us?).

yes.

> 
> The spikes on your graphs show the packet loss ?

yes.

> How can we have a RTT < 50ms 
> while experiencing packet loss ?


Collectd uses a ping rate of 10 seconds here, RTT >= 0.9s = 900ms is "loss"
If 1/3 arrives in < 50ms and 2/3 are lost, RTT is < 50ms  while loss = 2/3.

Btw. I you wanna see our setup, we can take a tour via ssh / tmux - I can provide the rrd-Files, too.
You can contact my by jabber (yanosz@jabber.ccc.de) as well,

Thanks,
Keep smiling
yanosz

Re: [B.A.T.M.A.N.] Packet-Loss-Peaks in a Freifunk-Network

["Linus Lüssing"]

What were the exact batman-adv versions at the time you made those graphs for the shown nodes as well as any intermediate nodes (although if I got your setup right then the nodes in those graphs do not have any intermediate batman-adv hops involved, do they?)?

Does it make a difference if you make the entries in the neighbor solicitation table permanent (e.g. with 'ip -6 neigh')?

Do the same spikes appear with a 'batctl ping' (or if adding such graphs is quite a hassle then at least, is the overall 'batctl ping' packet loss similar to the one from the ip ping)?

Do you see any "Changing route towards" events in the batman-adv logs between these supposedly always direct neighbors - if yes, maybe with a similar frequency? Or even better, check whether the same packet loss appears when isolating any of such pairs of nodes so that no batman-adv route changes could happen at all.

Do these packet loss events correlate with periods of high OGM loss (e.g. check for high last-seen values in the originator table)?

> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 03. Januar 2013 um 17:17 Uhr
> Von: "Jan Lühr" <ff@stephan.homeunix.net>
> An: "The list for a Better Approach To Mobile Ad-hoc Networking" <b.a.t.m.a.n@lists.open-mesh.org>
> Betreff: Re: [B.A.T.M.A.N.] Packet-Loss-Peaks in a Freifunk-Network
>
> Hello,
> 
> Am 03.01.2013 um 17:05 schrieb Marek Lindner:
> 
> > On Thursday, January 03, 2013 23:52:42 Jan Lühr wrote:
> >> Well, I started echoing on the underlying VPN-connection as well and
> >> changed the chart-titles for clearance:
> >> 
> >> In chart 4 and chart 5 RTT / Loss from kif.kbu to node-1 is measured.
> >> In chart 4 kif is sending ICMPv6 to the link-local address of
> >> bat0-interface - in chart 5 the link_local address of the underlying
> >> vpn-interface is used.
> > 
> > All tests are from the same node to the same node using exactly the same means 
> > (protocols, etc) with the exception of batman-adv ? Sorry for my dumb question 
> > but your topology might be obvious to you but isn't for me (us?).
> 
> yes.
> 
> > 
> > The spikes on your graphs show the packet loss ?
> 
> yes.
> 
> > How can we have a RTT < 50ms 
> > while experiencing packet loss ?
> 
> 
> Collectd uses a ping rate of 10 seconds here, RTT >= 0.9s = 900ms is "loss"
> If 1/3 arrives in < 50ms and 2/3 are lost, RTT is < 50ms  while loss = 2/3.
> 
> Btw. I you wanna see our setup, we can take a tour via ssh / tmux - I can provide the rrd-Files, too.
> You can contact my by jabber (yanosz@jabber.ccc.de) as well,
> 
> Thanks,
> Keep smiling
> yanosz
> 
> 

Re: [B.A.T.M.A.N.] Packet-Loss-Peaks in a Freifunk-Network

[Jan Lühr]

Hi Linus,

nice to hear from you again.

Am 04.01.2013 um 06:34 schrieb Linus Lüssing:

> What were the exact batman-adv versions at the time you made those graphs for the shown nodes as well as any intermediate nodes (although if I got your setup right then the nodes in those graphs do not have any intermediate batman-adv hops involved, do they?)?
> 
> Does it make a difference if you make the entries in the neighbor solicitation table permanent (e.g. with 'ip -6 neigh')?
> 
> Do the same spikes appear with a 'batctl ping' (or if adding such graphs is quite a hassle then at least, is the overall 'batctl ping' packet loss similar to the one from the ip ping)?
> 
> Do you see any "Changing route towards" events in the batman-adv logs between these supposedly always direct neighbors - if yes, maybe with a similar frequency? Or even better, check whether the same packet loss appears when isolating any of such pairs of nodes so that no batman-adv route changes could happen at all.
> 

For some reason, the spikes disappeared around midnight - and I don't know why.
Maybe batman-adv converged to a different plan (or converged at all) or the Flying Spaghetti Monster our network to work nowadays.

I'll go one inspecting this issue, but I cannot answer any of your questions. :-(

Keep smiling
yanosz