From: Ihor Solodrai <ihor.solodrai@linux.dev>
To: Alexei Starovoitov <alexei.starovoitov@gmail.com>, bpf@vger.kernel.org
Cc: daniel@iogearbox.net, andrii@kernel.org, eddyz87@gmail.com,
memxor@gmail.com
Subject: Re: [PATCH bpf 00/81] bpf: Stack in arena and a verifier that joins states
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2026 22:08:00 -0700 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <0e447293-7b70-4ce9-b5e4-ef9522da2de2@linux.dev> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <DMF6R1UZUOG2.GSKI6FS2KJ1D@gmail.com>
On 2026-10-26 5:14 p.m., Alexei Starovoitov wrote:
> On Tue Oct 27, 2026 at 12:04 AM UTC, Ihor Solodrai wrote:
>> On 2026-10-26 4:53 p.m., Alexei Starovoitov wrote:
>>> On Mon Oct 26, 2026 at 4:57 PM UTC, Ihor Solodrai wrote:
>>>> On 2026-10-25 7:58 p.m., Alexei Starovoitov wrote:
>>>>> From: Alexei Starovoitov <ast@kernel.org>
>>>>>
>>>>> The goal of this series is to load Rust programs as rustc and LLVM compile
>>>>> them. These programs keep data, heap and address-taken locals in arena.
>>>>> They use trait objects, recursion, unwinding, and loops that have no known
>>>>> bound. The test programs are in https://github.com/4ast/rust-bpf
>>>>>
>>>>> The series has three parts:
>>>>>
>>>>> patches 1-15 Fixes and a revert. They do not depend on the other
>>>>> parts.
>>>>> patches 16-31 A stack in arena.
>>>>> patches 32-81 A verifier that joins states.
>>>>
>>>> Hi Alexei,
>>>>
>>>> Just FYI bpf-ci-bot AI review workflow is limited to 50 patches per series.
>>>>
>>>> The limit was set as a guardrail for commit selection logic (to not
>>>> accidentally run review for 10k commits). I chose 50 because usually
>>>> we ask people to break up long series into smaller reviewable pieces,
>>>> and pre-singulariy >10 patches series would already raise questions.
>>>>
>>>> Since the approach to patch review on bpf list has obviously changed
>>>> recently, what would you suggest as a new limit?
>>>
>>> I didn't know that there is such limit. I'm not sure there is a good limit.
>>> Maybe whitelist it by known developers with commits?
>>
>> The purpose of the limit is to guard against unintentional blow up of
>> compute and token cost. It's not infinite.
>> Are there plans for 10k-patch series?
>
> yes. they already exist.
It doesn't look like you are joking, so let's consider it seriously.
I don't want to come off as too skeptical or critical. I'm just trying
to be rational. These are difficult problems and there is a lot of
uncertainty. So please bear with me.
For the sake of argument, let's imagine a 10k-patch series that fixes
multiple important problems which have to be addressed urgently.
What is the logistics of landing it? Is it going to be posted to the
mailing list?
Is it expected for people to read the patches? (my guess is no, it's
too slow)
Is it expected to get independent AI assessments of every patch?
Sub-sequences? Which ones? Only the whole series?
Can today's SOTA AI "agent" systems even do that - analyse entire
10k-patch series in one go without dropping any balls? Let's not
speculate about future better AI, the series has to land *now*, no
time to wait.
And remember, the same AI with same root prompt can produce different
results, depending on many factors. Should we run k-of-n or something?
How long does it run? Does the infra to execute this exist?
How much does it cost? Who pays the bills?
How many independent AI-driven assessments should be done before the
whole chain of (Linux) command is satisfied with the results and
pulls the trigger? Pardon my unample metaphors.
Who and how assesses the assessments?
Is there enough confidence in today's AI capability, that these 10k
patches are landable in the real world and won't create more new
problems vs what they are fixing?
These questions are just from the top of my head.
There is of course an answer that kinda works: don't worry about most
of the above, trust the AI output (the agents that generated patches
*surely* tested them well) and just git push.
But this is a "leap of faith" approach, and it requires for the vast
majority of participants to be onboard, which doesn't seem to be the
case yet if ever.
If we are not doing the leap of faith, then the questions above need
thoughtful answers, before anything approaching 10k-patch series can
be seriously considered.
If we are, well let's be explicit about it and stop pretending to do
proper patch reviews (whether with AI or not).
>
>> I'm sure we can come up with a reasonable limit for a "reviewable"
>> series.
>
> There are not reviewable by current infra.
Correct. Current testing / review infra is not able to support regular
100+ patches, let alone 10k. And that's bpf, which has a pretty good
infra in comparison to other corners of the kernel.
The questions are: how does the new infra look like, who builds it,
and who pays for it? Is it even needed? As of today there are no
answers.
A proof of personhood in text communication hasn't been invented yet,
so I'll do what I can:
Typed-by: Ihor Solodrai <ihor.solodrai@linux.dev>
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2026-10-27 5:08 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 144+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2026-10-26 2:58 [PATCH bpf 00/81] bpf: Stack in arena and a verifier that joins states Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-26 2:58 ` [PATCH bpf 01/81] selftests/bpf: Remove tests for global data in arena Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-26 2:58 ` [PATCH bpf 02/81] libbpf: Remove .arena.data Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-26 2:58 ` [PATCH bpf 03/81] libbpf: Keep format strings of bpf_printk() in .rodata Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-26 2:58 ` [PATCH bpf 04/81] selftests/bpf: Remove tests for arena access through numbers Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-26 2:58 ` [PATCH bpf 05/81] bpf: Remove BPF_F_ARENA_SCALAR Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-26 2:58 ` [PATCH bpf 06/81] bpf, x86: Remove r0_on_stack from fetching atomics in arena Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-26 2:58 ` [PATCH bpf 07/81] bpf: One time slice of may_goto for a run of a prog Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-26 12:50 ` kernel test robot
2026-10-26 14:43 ` kernel test robot
2026-10-26 17:35 ` Kumar Kartikeya Dwivedi
2026-10-27 16:39 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-26 2:58 ` [PATCH bpf 08/81] selftests/bpf: Test may_goto in a loop that calls a subprog that spins Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-26 2:58 ` [PATCH bpf 09/81] bpf: Clear delta of a register that scalar evolution widens Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-26 20:09 ` Daniel Borkmann
2026-10-27 21:23 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-26 2:58 ` [PATCH bpf 10/81] selftests/bpf: Test that a widened register is not linked Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-26 2:58 ` [PATCH bpf 11/81] selftests/bpf: Wait for the last maps of map_kptr to be freed Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-26 2:58 ` [PATCH bpf 12/81] bpf: Don't widen a pointer to a buffer in scalar evolution Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-26 2:58 ` [PATCH bpf 13/81] selftests/bpf: Test a loop that moves a pointer to a buffer Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-26 2:58 ` [PATCH bpf 14/81] bpf: Fix a false verifier bug in the clamp of scalar evolution Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-26 23:45 ` Eduard Zingerman
2026-10-27 16:32 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-26 2:58 ` [PATCH bpf 15/81] selftests/bpf: Test induction variables that come back out of range Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-26 2:58 ` [PATCH bpf 16/81] libbpf: Make arena 1 Gbyte when max_entries is not set Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-26 16:54 ` Andrii Nakryiko
2026-10-26 16:59 ` Kumar Kartikeya Dwivedi
2026-10-27 0:13 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-27 21:11 ` Kumar Kartikeya Dwivedi
2026-10-27 21:22 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-27 21:28 ` Andrii Nakryiko
2026-10-27 21:29 ` Kumar Kartikeya Dwivedi
2026-10-26 2:58 ` [PATCH bpf 17/81] selftests/bpf: Test the default size of arena Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-26 2:58 ` [PATCH bpf 18/81] bpf: Treat addr_space_cast of a pointer that is not in arena as a move Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-26 2:58 ` [PATCH bpf 19/81] selftests/bpf: Test addr_space_cast of pointers that are not in arena Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-26 2:58 ` [PATCH bpf 20/81] libbpf: Support .bss.addr_space.1 section Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-26 2:58 ` [PATCH bpf 21/81] libbpf: Relocate pointers that are stored in arena Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-26 2:58 ` [PATCH bpf 22/81] selftests/bpf: Test pointers in arena and .bss.addr_space.1 Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-26 2:58 ` [PATCH bpf 23/81] bpf: Introduce bpf register BPF_REG_ARENA_SP Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-26 2:58 ` [PATCH bpf 24/81] bpf: Add stacks for programs to arena Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-26 2:58 ` [PATCH bpf 25/81] bpf, x86: Add BPF_ATOMIC_LOCAL Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-26 2:58 ` [PATCH bpf 26/81] bpf: Support BPF_REG_ARENA_SP in the verifier Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-26 17:47 ` Kumar Kartikeya Dwivedi
2026-10-26 23:51 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-27 0:18 ` Kumar Kartikeya Dwivedi
2026-10-27 18:45 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-27 20:23 ` Kumar Kartikeya Dwivedi
2026-10-28 4:47 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-28 11:00 ` Kumar Kartikeya Dwivedi
2026-10-26 2:58 ` [PATCH bpf 27/81] bpf, x86: Support BPF_REG_ARENA_SP Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-26 2:58 ` [PATCH bpf 28/81] bpf, arm64: " Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-26 2:58 ` [PATCH bpf 29/81] selftests/bpf: Add tests for BPF_REG_ARENA_SP Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-26 2:58 ` [PATCH bpf 30/81] bpf: Add bpf_arena_memcmp() and bpf_arena_memcpy() kfuncs Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-26 2:58 ` [PATCH bpf 31/81] bpf: Add bpf_alloc() and bpf_free() kfuncs Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-26 2:58 ` [PATCH bpf 32/81] bpf: Count stack arguments of a static subprog from its code Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-26 3:53 ` bot+bpf-ci
2026-10-26 2:58 ` [PATCH bpf 33/81] selftests/bpf: Test static subprogs that don't take what BTF says Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-26 2:58 ` [PATCH bpf 34/81] bpf: Let scalar evolution see loads from read-only maps Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-26 2:58 ` [PATCH bpf 35/81] selftests/bpf: Test scalar evolution with a loop bound in .rodata Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-26 2:58 ` [PATCH bpf 36/81] bpf: Helpers don't write through ARG_ANYTHING Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-26 2:58 ` [PATCH bpf 37/81] selftests/bpf: Test scalar evolution with stack address as ARG_ANYTHING Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-26 2:58 ` [PATCH bpf 38/81] bpf: Simplify (zext32 (zext32 x)) in scalar evolution Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-26 2:59 ` [PATCH bpf 39/81] selftests/bpf: Test scalar evolution with a latch on a 32-bit copy Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-26 2:59 ` [PATCH bpf 40/81] bpf: Keep the range of a packet pointer when a number >= 0 is added Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-26 2:59 ` [PATCH bpf 41/81] selftests/bpf: Test range of a packet pointer after a number " Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-26 3:53 ` bot+bpf-ci
2026-10-26 2:59 ` [PATCH bpf 42/81] bpf: Allow BPF_MAX_SUBPROGS targets of a read from a table of functions Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-26 3:53 ` bot+bpf-ci
2026-10-26 2:59 ` [PATCH bpf 43/81] bpf: Tell user space that a run of a prog was cut short Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-26 3:53 ` bot+bpf-ci
2026-10-26 2:59 ` [PATCH bpf 44/81] bpf: Mask the count of a 32-bit shift in scalar evolution Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-26 3:52 ` bot+bpf-ci
2026-10-26 2:59 ` [PATCH bpf 45/81] selftests/bpf: Expect the masked count of 32-bit shifts Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-26 2:59 ` [PATCH bpf 46/81] bpf: Finish the insn in the state that maybe_fork_scalars() splits off Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-26 3:53 ` bot+bpf-ci
2026-10-26 2:59 ` [PATCH bpf 47/81] bpf: Add join of verifier states Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-26 3:53 ` bot+bpf-ci
2026-10-26 2:59 ` [PATCH bpf 48/81] bpf: Describe loops that scalar evolution cannot count exactly Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-26 3:53 ` bot+bpf-ci
2026-10-26 2:59 ` [PATCH bpf 49/81] selftests/bpf: Adjust tests to loops that are counted now Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-26 2:59 ` [PATCH bpf 50/81] bpf: Add may_goto to the loops that the verifier marks Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-26 3:53 ` bot+bpf-ci
2026-10-26 2:59 ` [PATCH bpf 51/81] bpf: Check stack and count calls of recursive subprogs at run time Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-26 4:09 ` bot+bpf-ci
2026-10-26 12:51 ` kernel test robot
2026-10-26 2:59 ` [PATCH bpf 52/81] bpf: Add the main pass as a fixpoint over the control flow graph Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-26 3:53 ` bot+bpf-ci
2026-10-26 2:59 ` [PATCH bpf 53/81] bpf: Verify programs " Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-26 4:25 ` bot+bpf-ci
2026-10-26 2:59 ` [PATCH bpf 54/81] bpf: Allow 24 arguments of static subprogs Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-26 3:53 ` bot+bpf-ci
2026-10-26 2:59 ` [PATCH bpf 55/81] selftests/bpf: Test a static subprog with 24 arguments Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-26 2:59 ` [PATCH bpf 56/81] bpf: Bump MAX_CALL_FRAMES to 32 Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-26 3:53 ` bot+bpf-ci
2026-10-26 2:59 ` [PATCH bpf 57/81] selftests/bpf: Test 32 and 33 call frames Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-26 3:53 ` bot+bpf-ci
2026-10-26 2:59 ` [PATCH bpf 58/81] bpf: Bump BPF_MAX_SUBPROGS to 1024 Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-26 2:59 ` [PATCH bpf 59/81] selftests/bpf: Make room in veristat for the stats of 1024 subprogs Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-26 2:59 ` [PATCH bpf 60/81] bpf: Remove is_state_visited() Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-26 2:59 ` [PATCH bpf 61/81] bpf: Remove precision tracking Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-26 3:53 ` bot+bpf-ci
2026-10-26 2:59 ` [PATCH bpf 62/81] bpf: Remove prune points, levels of state comparison and pop_stack() Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-26 3:53 ` bot+bpf-ci
2026-10-26 2:59 ` [PATCH bpf 63/81] bpf: Print 0 as the limit in the statistics line Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-26 3:52 ` bot+bpf-ci
2026-10-26 2:59 ` [PATCH bpf 64/81] bpf: Remove bpf_compute_scc() Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-26 3:53 ` bot+bpf-ci
2026-10-26 2:59 ` [PATCH bpf 65/81] bpf: Update comments about paths, pruning and explored states Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-26 3:53 ` bot+bpf-ci
2026-10-26 2:59 ` [PATCH bpf 66/81] bpf: Remove iter.depth Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-26 2:59 ` [PATCH bpf 67/81] bpf: Remove leftovers of precision tracking and read marks Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-26 2:59 ` [PATCH bpf 68/81] bpf: Track a pointer to one of a set of functions Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-26 3:53 ` bot+bpf-ci
2026-10-26 2:59 ` [PATCH bpf 69/81] bpf, docs: Rewrite verifier.rst Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-26 3:53 ` bot+bpf-ci
2026-10-26 2:59 ` [PATCH bpf 70/81] selftests/bpf: Adjust tests of precision tracking Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-26 3:53 ` bot+bpf-ci
2026-10-26 2:59 ` [PATCH bpf 71/81] selftests/bpf: Adjust tests of linked registers and spills Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-26 3:53 ` bot+bpf-ci
2026-10-26 2:59 ` [PATCH bpf 72/81] selftests/bpf: Adjust tests of pruning Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-26 3:53 ` bot+bpf-ci
2026-10-26 2:59 ` [PATCH bpf 73/81] selftests/bpf: Adjust tests of loops Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-26 3:53 ` bot+bpf-ci
2026-10-26 2:59 ` [PATCH bpf 74/81] selftests/bpf: Adjust tests of recursion Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-26 2:59 ` [PATCH bpf 75/81] selftests/bpf: Adjust tests to the order of verification and to the log Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-26 2:59 ` [PATCH bpf 76/81] selftests/bpf: Adjust tests of unprivileged progs Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-26 2:59 ` [PATCH bpf 77/81] selftests/bpf: Test states that are not joined Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-26 3:53 ` bot+bpf-ci
2026-10-26 2:59 ` [PATCH bpf 78/81] selftests/bpf: Test progs that run out of budget Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-26 3:53 ` bot+bpf-ci
2026-10-26 2:59 ` [PATCH bpf 79/81] selftests/bpf: Test 'unwound' in bpf_prog_info Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-26 2:59 ` [PATCH bpf 80/81] selftests/bpf: Test the stack in arena after recursion ran out of budget Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-26 2:59 ` [PATCH bpf 81/81] selftests/bpf: Test callx of one of a set of functions Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-26 3:53 ` bot+bpf-ci
2026-10-26 16:57 ` [PATCH bpf 00/81] bpf: Stack in arena and a verifier that joins states Ihor Solodrai
2026-10-26 23:53 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-27 0:04 ` Ihor Solodrai
2026-10-27 0:14 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-27 5:08 ` Ihor Solodrai [this message]
2026-10-26 22:28 ` Ihor Solodrai
2026-10-26 23:45 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2026-10-27 0:01 ` Ihor Solodrai
2026-10-27 0:13 ` Ihor Solodrai
2026-10-27 0:16 ` Alexei Starovoitov
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