From mboxrd@z Thu Jan  1 00:00:00 1970
From: paul.sherwood@codethink.co.uk (Paul Sherwood)
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2016 08:40:57 +0100
Subject: [cip-dev] Introduction
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To: cip-dev@lists.cip-project.org
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On 2016-09-16 06:15, Daniel Sangorrin wrote:
>> Greg K-H, Ben Hutchings and others have contributed a huge amount to
>> Long Term Stable and followon initiatives in the community over the
>> years. But when I first started exploring how things like LTS and 
>> LTSI
>> can work for embedded and automotive in 2012/2013, I hit some
>> fundamental questions, not least - how in practice can a complex
>> embedded project consume a 'stable' kernel that's being released **
>> every couple of weeks ** with the words 'users of this series must
>> upgrade'? I presented some work at an  automotive GENIVI event in 
>> Oct
>> 2013 [1] but the audience at that time literally refused to accept 
>> that
>> the idea of whole-of-life  updates.
>
> As for the embedded systems I deal with, a 2-weeks release is 
> definitely not
> required. A 6 six months cycle, complemented with aperiodic patch 
> releases
> for really *important* issues, would be good enough.
> Of course, different use cases may have different requirements so we
> will probably need to reach a consensus on that.

I expect there are multiple usecases/scenarios and a one-size-fits-all 
approach may not be possible. But note that even with six month cycle 
and periodic patch releases, it seems to me you imply requirements that

a) updates are relatively easy, low effort, low risk
b) updates may be required for the whole production lifetime of the 
target

I've seen plenty of examples where the real-world LTSI BSP 
implementation has made the process of updating the kernel 'a 
nightmare'.

And I've had lots of pushback from people insisting that no updates 
will be required 'after the first couple of years, when the bugs have 
been ironed out'.

I'm not yet sure whether CIP usecases mostly involve devices which are 
connected to the internet or other third-party services. And I'm not 
sure whether security and integrity of the software over the longterm is 
expected to be a key concern or not.

>> And as Greg said at the time:
>>
>> "The patches that apply for stuff after 2 years drops off 
>> dramatically,
>> and the work involved in keeping stuff working and testing for 
>> problems
>> increases greatly.?
>> Just yesterday there was a very interesting post about backports and
>> long term stable kernels on LWN [2]. Greg is quoted there 
>> considering:
>>
>> "But if we didn't provide an LTS, would companies constantly update
>> their kernels to newer releases to keep up with the security and
>> bugfixes? That goes against everything those managers/PMs have ever 
>> been
>> used to in the past, yet it's actually the best thing they could 
>> do."
>>
>> I've been recommending the constant update route route to customers
>> over the last few years, with some success, but many ecosystem 
>> members
>> are extremely uncomfortable with the whole idea of aligning with
>> mainline. I think this is broadly because as embedded engineers 
>> we've
>> learned over many years that it's best to change the platform as 
>> little
>> as possible.  I wrote an article trying to challenge this 
>> traditional
>> embedded thinking earlier this year [3]
>
> Thanks, interesting article.
>
> " All of which makes perfect sense for traditional embedded 
> projects."
>
> I just wanted to clarify that these 'traditional embedded projects'
> are actually
> in the scope of the CIP project.

Yes, they are.

I'm just suggesting that once we are working with a connected device 
containing more than tens of millions of lines of code, the principles 
we learned on self-contained device projects with tens or hundreds of 
thousands of lines, even if they have worked successfully for decades, 
may no longer apply.

> I believe embedded systems where
> continuous updates are hard to implement, should still benefit from 
> other
> CIP activities (e.g. testing, RAS, real-time partitioning support or 
> kernel
> self-protection).

Absolutely.