From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Christian Meder Subject: Re: "Read my lips: no more merges" - aka Linux 2.6.14-rc1 Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 00:08:12 +0200 Message-ID: <1126822093.27951.74.camel@localhost> References: <7255.1126583985@kao2.melbourne.sgi.com> <1126674993.5681.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1126745323.7199.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <43290486.5020301@zytor.com> <7v7jdibwqq.fsf@assigned-by-dhcp.cox.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Cc: git@vger.kernel.org, David =?ISO-8859-1?Q?K=E5gedal?= X-From: git-owner@vger.kernel.org Fri Sep 16 00:10:31 2005 Return-path: Received: from vger.kernel.org ([209.132.176.167]) by ciao.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EG1uB-0005Al-LF for gcvg-git@gmane.org; Fri, 16 Sep 2005 00:08:32 +0200 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S932274AbVIOWI1 convert rfc822-to-quoted-printable (ORCPT ); Thu, 15 Sep 2005 18:08:27 -0400 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id S932597AbVIOWI1 (ORCPT ); Thu, 15 Sep 2005 18:08:27 -0400 Received: from a15181680.alturo-server.de ([217.160.108.75]:35535 "EHLO a15181680.alturo-server.de") by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S932274AbVIOWI0 convert rfc822-to-8bit (ORCPT ); Thu, 15 Sep 2005 18:08:26 -0400 Received: from p54a21a4c.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([84.162.26.76] helo=localhost) by a15181680.alturo-server.de with esmtpsa (TLS-1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA:32) (Exim 4.52) id 1EG1u1-0007qq-RP; Fri, 16 Sep 2005 00:08:22 +0200 Received: from chris by localhost with local (Exim 4.52) id 1EG1tu-0006re-Ar; Fri, 16 Sep 2005 00:08:14 +0200 To: Linus Torvalds In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Evolution 2.2.3 Sender: git-owner@vger.kernel.org Precedence: bulk X-Mailing-List: git@vger.kernel.org Archived-At: On Thu, 2005-09-15 at 11:15 -0700, Linus Torvalds wrote: >=20 > On Thu, 15 Sep 2005, David K=E5gedal wrote: > >=20 > > No, you read my message wrong, or I failed to describe it properly. >=20 > No, I did get it. >=20 > It's the Debian people who don't get it. >=20 > Expecting other software projects to make cludges for Debian-specific= =20 > packages is _insane_. Actually according to Debian policy, sensible-pager is a cludge which should be used _only_ in the case that the upstream program is hard to adapt to a PAGER environment approach. Only in this case the upstream package should be patched to at least use sensible-pager. >=20 > In other word, no sane package will ever use "sensible-pager", becaus= e > it's not a sensible thing to do. Once Debian maintainers are "Big Poo= -Bah > And OverLord of the KnownUniverse" and can force everybody else to ha= ve > "sensible-pager" too, maybe -then- it might make sense, but until the= n > it's just an odd-ball Debian thing that makes Debian maintainers eith= er > (a) maintain stupid patches to teach other programs about it or (b) h= ave=20 > normal programs that use the _standard_ pagers in the absense of $PAG= ER. >=20 > And like it or not, there are two standard pages: "more" and "less". = In=20 > the immortal words: "To two shall you count. You shall not count to o= ne,=20 > except on your way to two. And you shall definitely NOT count to thre= e,=20 > not call it 'sensible-pager'". >=20 > The fact is, we HAVE a sensible-pager, and it is called "less". >=20 > And for old programs that assume that sensible-pager is "more", we ei= ther=20 > install that _too_, or we make a symlink that points to "less". Debian prefers to call the symlink "pager" and let the sysadmin decide where it should point: less, more, whatever. The e2fsprogs upstream package for instance supports PAGER->/usr/bin/pager->/usr/bin/less. Granted /usr/bin/pager is probably Debian only but every upstream autho= r deciding whether to use PAGER:more or PAGER:less is not _that_ much better.=20 Just wanted to nitpick. Now you can reignite your flamethrower ;-)=20 Christian >=20 > And for people who want something else, everybody already supports th= e=20 > STANDARD way of saying so: "$PAGER". >=20 > In other words, "sensible-pager" buys you absolutely _nothing_. Excep= t for=20 > confusion and extra work. >=20 > > The advantage is, I guess, consistency. Different programs don't h= ave > > to encode their own default pager. >=20 > No. That's NOT an advantage. It's a disadvantage. Different programs = sure=20 > as hell will not do silly Debian-only things, so it just means that i= f=20 > Debian tries to enforce this, they're only causing more work for thei= r own=20 > maintainers. >=20 > They're also causing more work and discomfort for their users, since = now=20 > their users will have to live with the fact that they are used to=20 > non-standard behaviour. >=20 > And it has _zero_ upsides. Exactly because it's not standard. There's= a=20 > lot to be said for "do it like others do it". >=20 > Linus > - > To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe git" in > the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org > More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html --=20 Christian Meder, email: chris@absolutegiganten.org The Way-Seeking Mind of a tenzo is actualized=20 by rolling up your sleeves. (Eihei Dogen Zenji)