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From: jamal <hadi@cyberus.ca>
To: Willy Tarreau <w@1wt.eu>
Cc: Andrew Morton <akpm@linux-foundation.org>,
	David Miller <davem@davemloft.net>,
	jmorris@namei.org, viro@ZenIV.linux.org.uk, david@lang.hm,
	sclark46@earthlink.net, johnpol@2ka.mipt.ru, rjw@sisk.pl,
	tilman@imap.cc, Valdis.Kletnieks@vt.edu, lkml@rtr.ca,
	jesper.juhl@gmail.com, yoshfuji@linux-ipv6.org, jeff@garzik.org,
	linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, git@vger.kernel.org,
	netdev@vger.kernel.org
Subject: Work WAS(Re: Reporting bugs and bisection
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 09:18:36 -0400	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <1208265516.4419.125.camel@localhost> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20080415045541.GA611@1wt.eu>

On Tue, 2008-15-04 at 06:55 +0200, Willy Tarreau wrote:

> And if Dave speaks about these stats : http://lwn.net/Articles/237768/
> then Al does not even appear in it, which proves your point.

Stats such as those above, while useful, are flawed.
IMO James Morris has (probably more than anybody else) hit on the core
issue. To extend his view: theres more than just code review that
deserves respect. Testing is one. Commenting, not necessarily on code,
but on architecture is another. Documenting. Yes, running sparse or even
Lindent or checkpatch.
In the old/current Linux thinking (pun intended) work equates to
churning code. That thought process derives from Linus actually then
propagates down stream to other folks.
I think the Linus approach is still excellent - but its definition of
"work" is no longer valid. Work must include all these other things
and visible credit is important if the revolution is to continue.

If you look at it from a software engineering or production resource
management, the Linux development model has gotta be one of the most
inefficient[1] - with a reward system geared to developers mostly.
If you want to look it from an investment of time (ROI perspective),
developers get way too much credit riding on everybody elses back.
Why should Mark Lord report another bug to us?
Put yourself in his shoes:
- he is a clever guy who has already worked around the bug. So a proper
fix is only a convinience for him.
- Blessed as he was - he got to do more and more work after reporting.
- he got slapped for claiming he had to go and get lunch and therefore
didnt have time to do more bisect for a bug that wasnt just unique to
his setup.
- he spent a gazillion electrons responding to people and justifying his
stance
- he got no credit for his time whatsoever when the bug was fixed (he
wont be showing up on lwn list).

I think perspective and credit for peoples time needs to change.

cheers,
jamal

[1] With current momentum, theres an infinite resources of developers
and testers and documenters in Linux, i.e
resource management is only valid as a metric if you had finite
resources. So the point i am making is moot - but I do strongly believe
the momentum will dampen if current trend of defining work continues.

  reply	other threads:[~2008-04-15 13:19 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 66+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
     [not found] <47FEADCB.7070104@rtr.ca>
     [not found] ` <20080413121831.d89dd424.akpm@linux-foundation.org>
     [not found]   ` <20080413202118.GA29658@2ka.mipt.ru>
     [not found]     ` <200804132233.50491.rjw@sisk.pl>
     [not found]       ` <20080413205406.GA9190@2ka.mipt.ru>
     [not found]         ` <48028830.6020703@earthlink.net>
2008-04-13 23:51           ` Reporting bugs and bisection david
2008-04-14  0:36             ` Jakub Narebski
2008-04-14  4:39             ` Willy Tarreau
2008-04-14  5:39               ` Al Viro
2008-04-14  6:24                 ` Andrew Morton
2008-04-14  6:39                   ` David Miller
2008-04-14  6:43                     ` David Miller
2008-04-14  7:23                   ` Al Viro
2008-04-14  7:43                     ` Al Viro
2008-04-14  8:04                     ` Andrew Morton
2008-04-14  8:30                       ` David Miller
2008-04-14  9:06                         ` Christoph Hellwig
2008-04-14  9:46                         ` Andi Kleen
2008-04-15  5:25                           ` Bill Fink
2008-04-14 10:15                         ` Andrew Morton
2008-04-14 10:41                           ` David Miller
2008-04-14 17:35                             ` Roman Shaposhnik
2008-04-14 12:08                       ` Adrian Bunk
2008-04-14 14:43                       ` Arjan van de Ven
2008-04-14 17:51                         ` Andrew Morton
2008-04-14 18:24                           ` Arjan van de Ven
2008-04-14 19:30                           ` Ilpo Järvinen
2008-04-14 15:54                     ` James Morris
2008-04-14 22:01                       ` David Miller
2008-04-14 23:05                         ` Andrew Morton
2008-04-15  4:55                           ` Willy Tarreau
2008-04-15 13:18                             ` jamal [this message]
2008-04-15  9:33                       ` David Newall
2008-04-15  9:54                         ` Michael Kerrisk
2008-04-15 14:04                           ` David Newall
2008-04-15 20:51                             ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2008-04-16  2:34                               ` David Newall
2008-04-16  3:53                                 ` david
2008-04-16  9:06                                   ` David Newall
2008-04-16 11:02                                     ` Andi Kleen
2008-04-16 12:41                                   ` Stephen Clark
2008-04-16  4:29                                 ` Willy Tarreau
2008-04-16 12:13                                   ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2008-04-16 12:15                         ` Sverre Rabbelier
2008-04-16 13:26                           ` Adrian Bunk
2008-04-16 19:02                             ` Andrew Morton
2008-04-16 19:43                               ` Sverre Rabbelier
2008-04-16 19:55                               ` Adrian Bunk
2008-04-17 13:50                                 ` J. Bruce Fields
2008-04-17 15:26                                   ` Adrian Bunk
2008-04-16 19:58                               ` Alexey Dobriyan
2008-04-16 20:01                               ` Arjan van de Ven
2008-04-16 19:39                             ` Sverre Rabbelier
2008-04-16 20:16                               ` Adrian Bunk
2008-04-16 20:53                                 ` Adrian Bunk
2008-04-16 21:05                                   ` Sverre Rabbelier
2008-04-16 21:25                                     ` Adrian Bunk
2008-04-16 20:04                             ` Willy Tarreau
2008-04-16 20:55                               ` Jakub Narebski
2008-04-16 21:17                           ` Jesper Juhl
2008-04-17 17:04                             ` David Newall
2008-04-17 19:09                               ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2008-04-17 19:35                                 ` Ray Lee
2008-04-17 19:57                                   ` Sverre Rabbelier
2008-04-17 20:16                                   ` Al Viro
2008-04-17 20:38                                     ` Ray Lee
2008-04-17 20:53                                       ` Al Viro
2008-04-17 21:01                                         ` Ray Lee
2008-04-14 19:13                   ` Rene Herman
2008-04-14 20:38                     ` Andrew Morton
2008-04-14 22:18                       ` Rene Herman

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