From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: jamal Subject: Work WAS(Re: Reporting bugs and bisection Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 09:18:36 -0400 Message-ID: <1208265516.4419.125.camel@localhost> References: <20080413232441.e216a02c.akpm@linux-foundation.org> <20080414072328.GW9785@ZenIV.linux.org.uk> <20080414.150105.101568769.davem@davemloft.net> <20080414160513.9f57e5ba.akpm@linux-foundation.org> <20080415045541.GA611@1wt.eu> Reply-To: hadi@cyberus.ca Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Andrew Morton , David Miller , jmorris@namei.org, viro@ZenIV.linux.org.uk, david@lang.hm, sclark46@earthlink.net, johnpol@2ka.mipt.ru, rjw@sisk.pl, tilman@imap.cc, Valdis.Kletnieks@vt.edu, lkml@rtr.ca, jesper.juhl@gmail.com, yoshfuji@linux-ipv6.org, jeff@garzik.org, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, git@vger.kernel.org, netdev@vger.kernel.org To: Willy Tarreau X-From: linux-kernel-owner+glk-linux-kernel-3=40m.gmane.org-S1764952AbYDONTB@vger.kernel.org Tue Apr 15 15:22:28 2008 connect(): Connection refused Return-path: Envelope-to: glk-linux-kernel-3@gmane.org Received: from vger.kernel.org ([209.132.176.167]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1Jll4p-0000xm-Gh for glk-linux-kernel-3@gmane.org; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 15:19:59 +0200 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S1764952AbYDONTB (ORCPT ); Tue, 15 Apr 2008 09:19:01 -0400 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id S1764781AbYDONSn (ORCPT ); Tue, 15 Apr 2008 09:18:43 -0400 Received: from an-out-0708.google.com ([209.85.132.251]:63243 "EHLO an-out-0708.google.com" rhost-flags-OK-OK-OK-OK) by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S1753637AbYDONSl (ORCPT ); Tue, 15 Apr 2008 09:18:41 -0400 Received: by an-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id d31so537346and.103 for ; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 06:18:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:subject:from:reply-to:to:cc:in-reply-to:references:content-type:date:message-id:mime-version:x-mailer:content-transfer-encoding:sender; bh=qDngdJiR6R3OsJJeNxgTmGVzgosGqfxSbIQ3CS8P704=; b=k6WoZ4NdBK0ZAomBw27GgNjeAkmc2wisQYgV7iiJLpcOXHyXA3rLd/5dXHxeH24Z2ycJ8DJtzfJr6Tb+1u57WU7u5yKjpvKF0p7Dj7MzXGSs6i/1RQGV9UzXJawWs2VLEE+FCCMYuPqfCiNK1oXeQ87iXU9J7Xgzck3O7yOjxUA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=subject:from:reply-to:to:cc:in-reply-to:references:content-type:date:message-id:mime-version:x-mailer:content-transfer-encoding:sender; b=hMLoMwcr0X1kfrtwsIKwEyJvcnOkknCoiKSCpQ9uJYksSWe3jBjlBcp9HDJA2gn9rjwbD4SYTfkq+zHWeHQCNu01zcSwE8pKgLe+C+Vq44LxfyVMYwiyBSp6PySDFrY4H786ZdT9PdJ+XpQ/8ejoJX1TUKo8hi/GIMgGLlk4toI= Received: by 10.100.47.13 with SMTP id u13mr14893737anu.25.1208265520125; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 06:18:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?10.0.0.234? ( [99.240.75.67]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 8sm7273613hsp.4.2008.04.15.06.18.38 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Tue, 15 Apr 2008 06:18:39 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20080415045541.GA611@1wt.eu> X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.3 Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Archived-At: On Tue, 2008-15-04 at 06:55 +0200, Willy Tarreau wrote: > And if Dave speaks about these stats : http://lwn.net/Articles/237768/ > then Al does not even appear in it, which proves your point. Stats such as those above, while useful, are flawed. IMO James Morris has (probably more than anybody else) hit on the core issue. To extend his view: theres more than just code review that deserves respect. Testing is one. Commenting, not necessarily on code, but on architecture is another. Documenting. Yes, running sparse or even Lindent or checkpatch. In the old/current Linux thinking (pun intended) work equates to churning code. That thought process derives from Linus actually then propagates down stream to other folks. I think the Linus approach is still excellent - but its definition of "work" is no longer valid. Work must include all these other things and visible credit is important if the revolution is to continue. If you look at it from a software engineering or production resource management, the Linux development model has gotta be one of the most inefficient[1] - with a reward system geared to developers mostly. If you want to look it from an investment of time (ROI perspective), developers get way too much credit riding on everybody elses back. Why should Mark Lord report another bug to us? Put yourself in his shoes: - he is a clever guy who has already worked around the bug. So a proper fix is only a convinience for him. - Blessed as he was - he got to do more and more work after reporting. - he got slapped for claiming he had to go and get lunch and therefore didnt have time to do more bisect for a bug that wasnt just unique to his setup. - he spent a gazillion electrons responding to people and justifying his stance - he got no credit for his time whatsoever when the bug was fixed (he wont be showing up on lwn list). I think perspective and credit for peoples time needs to change. cheers, jamal [1] With current momentum, theres an infinite resources of developers and testers and documenters in Linux, i.e resource management is only valid as a metric if you had finite resources. So the point i am making is moot - but I do strongly believe the momentum will dampen if current trend of defining work continues.