Re: "Read my lips: no more merges" - aka Linux 2.6.14-rc1

Re: "Read my lips: no more merges" - aka Linux 2.6.14-rc1

[Linus Torvalds]

On Wed, 14 Sep 2005, Alejandro Bonilla Beeche wrote:
> 
> debian:~# cd linux-2.6/
> debian:~/linux-2.6# git log
> /usr/local/bin/git-log-script: line 4: less: command not found

A very strange Linux installation that doesn't come with "less"...

What a strange box. Anyway, that does point out that maybe the git RPM 
spec should have "less" as a dependency. 

		Linus

Re: "Read my lips: no more merges" - aka Linux 2.6.14-rc1

[H. Peter Anvin]

Linus Torvalds wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 14 Sep 2005, Alejandro Bonilla Beeche wrote:
> 
>>debian:~# cd linux-2.6/
>>debian:~/linux-2.6# git log
>>/usr/local/bin/git-log-script: line 4: less: command not found
> 
> 
> A very strange Linux installation that doesn't come with "less"...
> 
> What a strange box. Anyway, that does point out that maybe the git RPM 
> spec should have "less" as a dependency. 
> 

Generally you want to honour $PAGER if it is defined.

	-hpa

Re: "Read my lips: no more merges" - aka Linux 2.6.14-rc1

[Junio C Hamano]

"H. Peter Anvin" <hpa@zytor.com> writes:

> Linus Torvalds wrote:
>> On Wed, 14 Sep 2005, Alejandro Bonilla Beeche wrote:
>>
>>>debian:~# cd linux-2.6/
>>>debian:~/linux-2.6# git log
>>>/usr/local/bin/git-log-script: line 4: less: command not found
>> A very strange Linux installation that doesn't come with "less"...
>> What a strange box. Anyway, that does point out that maybe the git
>> RPM spec should have "less" as a dependency.
>
> Generally you want to honour $PAGER if it is defined.

We do, in the form of "something | ${PAGER:-less}".

On Debian, "less" is Priority "standard" and my understanding is
that the only thing we can (and should if I recall correctly)
omit from the dependency list is the packages of Priority
"essential", so technically we are required to list "less" as
our dependency.  I do not know about RPM/Fedora.

Re: "Read my lips: no more merges" - aka Linux 2.6.14-rc1

[David Kågedal]

Junio C Hamano <junkio@cox.net> writes:

> "H. Peter Anvin" <hpa@zytor.com> writes:
>
>> Linus Torvalds wrote:
>>> On Wed, 14 Sep 2005, Alejandro Bonilla Beeche wrote:
>>>
>>>>debian:~# cd linux-2.6/
>>>>debian:~/linux-2.6# git log
>>>>/usr/local/bin/git-log-script: line 4: less: command not found
>>> A very strange Linux installation that doesn't come with "less"...
>>> What a strange box. Anyway, that does point out that maybe the git
>>> RPM spec should have "less" as a dependency.
>>
>> Generally you want to honour $PAGER if it is defined.
>
> We do, in the form of "something | ${PAGER:-less}".
>
> On Debian, "less" is Priority "standard" and my understanding is
> that the only thing we can (and should if I recall correctly)
> omit from the dependency list is the packages of Priority
> "essential", so technically we are required to list "less" as
> our dependency.  I do not know about RPM/Fedora.

On my Debian system, there is a "sensible-pager" which does a
${PAGER:-pager}, and "pager" which is a symlink to an installed pager
(using the 'alternatives' system).  So a Debian package should
probably use one of those.

-- 
David Kågedal

Re: "Read my lips: no more merges" - aka Linux 2.6.14-rc1

[Linus Torvalds]

On Thu, 15 Sep 2005, David Kågedal wrote:
>
> On my Debian system, there is a "sensible-pager" which does a
> ${PAGER:-pager}, and "pager" which is a symlink to an installed pager
> (using the 'alternatives' system).  So a Debian package should
> probably use one of those.

Ok, this is now indisputable proof that Debian people are insane.

They have "sensible-pager", but not "less"?

Guys, somebody should visit a few Debian people with a baseball bat that 
is painted bright neon yellow, and has "CLUEBAT" written in big purple 
letters on it. And beat them to a quivering pulp.

There's "being flexible", and there's "being a total ass". Debian is being 
a total ass.

		Linus

Re: "Read my lips: no more merges" - aka Linux 2.6.14-rc1

[David Kågedal]

Linus Torvalds <torvalds@osdl.org> writes:

> They have "sensible-pager", but not "less"?

No, you read my message wrong, or I failed to describe it properly.

sensible-pager is just an indirection that uses your preferred pager.
This will usually be less, but if a user prefers to use e.g. "w3m" (or
"more") that can be done by reconfiguring a symlink (using the
update-alternatives program, or even a GUI such as galternatives).

So no, they haven't replaced less with sensible-pager.  They just
provided another way to select which pager you want.  Setting $PAGER
will still work the trick.

Running "sensible-pager" will check $PAGER an run that if set,
otherwise run the pager selected via the alternatives sytem, which
will usually be "less".  The alternatives selection is done with a
symlink called "/usr/bin/pager".

The advantage is, I guess, consistency.  Different programs don't have
to encode their own default pager.

To summarize: on a Debian system with "less" as the preferred pager,
these four invokations are equal:

  $ ${PAGER:-less}
  $ sensible-pager
  $ pager
  $ less

If you set $PAGER to something else, the first two variants will run
$PAGER, while the last two will still run "less".

-- 
David Kågedal

Re: "Read my lips: no more merges" - aka Linux 2.6.14-rc1

[Linus Torvalds]

On Thu, 15 Sep 2005, David Kågedal wrote:
> 
> No, you read my message wrong, or I failed to describe it properly.

No, I did get it.

It's the Debian people who don't get it.

Expecting other software projects to make cludges for Debian-specific 
packages is _insane_.

In other word, no sane package will ever use "sensible-pager", because
it's not a sensible thing to do. Once Debian maintainers are "Big Poo-Bah
And OverLord of the KnownUniverse" and can force everybody else to have
"sensible-pager" too, maybe -then- it might make sense, but until then
it's just an odd-ball Debian thing that makes Debian maintainers either
(a) maintain stupid patches to teach other programs about it or (b) have 
normal programs that use the _standard_ pagers in the absense of $PAGER.

And like it or not, there are two standard pages: "more" and "less". In 
the immortal words: "To two shall you count. You shall not count to one, 
except on your way to two. And you shall definitely NOT count to three, 
not call it 'sensible-pager'".

The fact is, we HAVE a sensible-pager, and it is called "less".

And for old programs that assume that sensible-pager is "more", we either 
install that _too_, or we make a symlink that points to "less".

And for people who want something else, everybody already supports the 
STANDARD way of saying so: "$PAGER".

In other words, "sensible-pager" buys you absolutely _nothing_. Except for 
confusion and extra work.

> The advantage is, I guess, consistency.  Different programs don't have
> to encode their own default pager.

No. That's NOT an advantage. It's a disadvantage. Different programs sure 
as hell will not do silly Debian-only things, so it just means that if 
Debian tries to enforce this, they're only causing more work for their own 
maintainers.

They're also causing more work and discomfort for their users, since now 
their users will have to live with the fact that they are used to 
non-standard behaviour.

And it has _zero_ upsides. Exactly because it's not standard. There's a 
lot to be said for "do it like others do it".

			Linus

Re: "Read my lips: no more merges" - aka Linux 2.6.14-rc1

[Christian Meder]

On Thu, 2005-09-15 at 11:15 -0700, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 15 Sep 2005, David Kågedal wrote:
> > 
> > No, you read my message wrong, or I failed to describe it properly.
> 
> No, I did get it.
> 
> It's the Debian people who don't get it.
> 
> Expecting other software projects to make cludges for Debian-specific 
> packages is _insane_.

Actually according to Debian policy, sensible-pager is a cludge which
should be used _only_ in the case that the upstream program is hard to
adapt to a PAGER environment approach. Only in this case the upstream
package should be patched to at least use sensible-pager.

> 
> In other word, no sane package will ever use "sensible-pager", because
> it's not a sensible thing to do. Once Debian maintainers are "Big Poo-Bah
> And OverLord of the KnownUniverse" and can force everybody else to have
> "sensible-pager" too, maybe -then- it might make sense, but until then
> it's just an odd-ball Debian thing that makes Debian maintainers either
> (a) maintain stupid patches to teach other programs about it or (b) have 
> normal programs that use the _standard_ pagers in the absense of $PAGER.
> 
> And like it or not, there are two standard pages: "more" and "less". In 
> the immortal words: "To two shall you count. You shall not count to one, 
> except on your way to two. And you shall definitely NOT count to three, 
> not call it 'sensible-pager'".
> 
> The fact is, we HAVE a sensible-pager, and it is called "less".
> 
> And for old programs that assume that sensible-pager is "more", we either 
> install that _too_, or we make a symlink that points to "less".

Debian prefers to call the symlink "pager" and let the sysadmin decide
where it should point: less, more, whatever. The e2fsprogs upstream
package for instance supports PAGER->/usr/bin/pager->/usr/bin/less.
Granted /usr/bin/pager is probably Debian only but every upstream author
deciding whether to use PAGER:more or PAGER:less is not _that_ much
better. 

Just wanted to nitpick. Now you can reignite your flamethrower ;-) 



				Christian

> 
> And for people who want something else, everybody already supports the 
> STANDARD way of saying so: "$PAGER".
> 
> In other words, "sensible-pager" buys you absolutely _nothing_. Except for 
> confusion and extra work.
> 
> > The advantage is, I guess, consistency.  Different programs don't have
> > to encode their own default pager.
> 
> No. That's NOT an advantage. It's a disadvantage. Different programs sure 
> as hell will not do silly Debian-only things, so it just means that if 
> Debian tries to enforce this, they're only causing more work for their own 
> maintainers.
> 
> They're also causing more work and discomfort for their users, since now 
> their users will have to live with the fact that they are used to 
> non-standard behaviour.
> 
> And it has _zero_ upsides. Exactly because it's not standard. There's a 
> lot to be said for "do it like others do it".
> 
> 			Linus
> -
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-- 
Christian Meder, email: chris@absolutegiganten.org

The Way-Seeking Mind of a tenzo is actualized 
by rolling up your sleeves.

                (Eihei Dogen Zenji)

Re: "Read my lips: no more merges" - aka Linux 2.6.14-rc1

[Theodore Ts'o]

On Fri, Sep 16, 2005 at 12:08:12AM +0200, Christian Meder wrote:
> Debian prefers to call the symlink "pager" and let the sysadmin decide
> where it should point: less, more, whatever. The e2fsprogs upstream
> package for instance supports PAGER->/usr/bin/pager->/usr/bin/less.
> Granted /usr/bin/pager is probably Debian only but every upstream author
> deciding whether to use PAGER:more or PAGER:less is not _that_ much
> better. 

Actually, debugfs uses $DEBUGFS_PAGER:$PAGER:pager:more:less as its
search path, where it looks for each executable in /usr/bin, /bin, and
the current directory.

Overkill, yes; but it was the best way to shut up the whiny debian
users who kept on filing bug reports.  (Yes, yes, I'm softie.
Besides, it's userspace, and compared to GNOME, KDE, or Mozilla, the
bloat involved isn't even measurable.  :-)

							- Ted

Re: "Read my lips: no more merges" - aka Linux 2.6.14-rc1

[Linus Torvalds]

On Wed, 14 Sep 2005, H. Peter Anvin wrote:
> 
> Generally you want to honour $PAGER if it is defined.

We do. But it falls back to "less" by default.

I realize that UNIX tradition is to fall back to "more", but let's face
it, that's just old and broken. There's "tradition" and there's "being
stupid and unable to change".

Of course, if RPM supports the notion of "suggest", maybe we can make 
"less" a suggestion rather than a requirement, since you can still use git 
without it as long as you set PAGER.

		Linus

Re: "Read my lips: no more merges" - aka Linux 2.6.14-rc1

[Horst von Brand]

Linus Torvalds <torvalds@osdl.org> wrote:
> On Wed, 14 Sep 2005, Alejandro Bonilla Beeche wrote:
> > 
> > debian:~# cd linux-2.6/
> > debian:~/linux-2.6# git log
> > /usr/local/bin/git-log-script: line 4: less: command not found
> 
> A very strange Linux installation that doesn't come with "less"...
> 
> What a strange box. Anyway, that does point out that maybe the git RPM 
> spec should have "less" as a dependency. 

Your wish is my command.

----
The git commands assume less(1) as pager. This adds the dependency, as
suggested by Linus.

Signed-off-by: Horst H. von Brand <vonbrand@inf.utfsm.cl>


---

 git-core.spec.in |    5 ++++-
 1 files changed, 4 insertions(+), 1 deletions(-)

0abd0856f2cb750a019451c7547694f36e60e83b
diff --git a/git-core.spec.in b/git-core.spec.in
--- a/git-core.spec.in
+++ b/git-core.spec.in
@@ -10,7 +10,7 @@ URL: 		http://kernel.org/pub/software/sc
 Source: 	http://kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/%{name}-%{version}.tar.gz
 BuildRequires:	zlib-devel, openssl-devel, curl-devel  %{!?_without_docs:, xmlto, asciidoc > 6.0.3}
 BuildRoot:	%{_tmppath}/%{name}-%{version}-root
-Requires: 	sh-utils, curl, diffutils, rsync, rcs, openssh-clients, perl, python >= 2.4, tk
+Requires: 	sh-utils, curl, diffutils, less, rsync, rcs, openssh-clients, perl, python >= 2.4, tk
 
 %description
 This is a stupid (but extremely fast) directory content manager.  It
@@ -44,6 +44,9 @@ rm -rf $RPM_BUILD_ROOT
 %{!?_without_docs: %{_mandir}/man7/*.7*}
 
 %changelog
+* Fri Sep 16 2005 Horst H. von Brand <vonbrand@inf.utfsm.cl>
+- Linus noticed that less is required, added to the dependencies
+
 * Sun Sep 11 2005 Horst H. von Brand <vonbrand@inf.utfsm.cl>
 - Updated dependencies
 - Don't assume manpages are gzipped