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[24.132.120.189]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id l18-20020a1709067d5200b006cb0ba8db9esm8932717ejp.14.2022.03.30.17.10.22 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Wed, 30 Mar 2022 17:10:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from avar by gmgdl with local (Exim 4.95) (envelope-from ) id 1nZiOK-0004wb-Sc; Thu, 31 Mar 2022 02:10:20 +0200 From: =?utf-8?B?w4Z2YXIgQXJuZmrDtnLDsA==?= Bjarmason To: Garrit Franke Cc: Junio C Hamano , git@vger.kernel.org, Taylor Blau Subject: Re: [PATCH v2] cli: add -v and -h shorthands Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 02:07:06 +0200 References: <20220330190956.21447-1-garrit@slashdev.space> User-agent: Debian GNU/Linux bookworm/sid; Emacs 27.1; mu4e 1.7.12 In-reply-to: Message-ID: <220331.86tubfrngz.gmgdl@evledraar.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Precedence: bulk List-ID: X-Mailing-List: git@vger.kernel.org On Thu, Mar 31 2022, Garrit Franke wrote: > On Wed, Mar 30 2022, Junio C Hamano wrote: > >> Sorry, but it is unclear why it is a good thing. > > My main motivation behind this change was a standardized user > experience across tools. Many users use these shorthands out of habit > to get an overview of a program. Seeing the command fail and having to > retype it in a longer form creates unnecessary friction between the > user and the program. I think this is a good trade-off in this case. I.e. -v and -h are commonly understood. >> Again, it might be safe right now, but it also closes the door for >> introducing global "verbose" option. What in exchange are we >> gaining? Are these short options worth it? > > I definitely see your concerns. Ultimately it's a question of which of > the two flags would be more convinient to have as a shorthand. As > stated above, users unfamiliar to the software arguably expect to see > the version number printed when using this flag. A user who seeks more > verbose output is probably more familiar with the options, so they are > more likely to know they have to use the longer "--verbose" form. This was somewhat discussed in/around https://lore.kernel.org/git/87zgs593ja.fsf@evledraar.gmail.com/, i.e. there I was arguing the counter-point, that we should have things like "git --no-progress subcmd ", rather than just "git subcmd --no-progress ". But I think the alternative won the day (at least in that commit-graph case), and in retrospect I think it was the right call for our UI in general. I still think it makes sense for git to understand a thing like --object-format at the top-level, and maybe/probably --progress, but --verbose is probably too confusing. I.e. it would imply verbose output for all commands (which they're much less likely to have/provide than the other two).