From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Rene Herman Subject: Re: Reporting bugs and bisection Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 00:18:24 +0200 Message-ID: <4803D830.7000206@keyaccess.nl> References: <47FEADCB.7070104@rtr.ca> <20080413121831.d89dd424.akpm@linux-foundation.org> <20080413202118.GA29658@2ka.mipt.ru> <200804132233.50491.rjw@sisk.pl> <20080413205406.GA9190@2ka.mipt.ru> <48028830.6020703@earthlink.net> <20080414043939.GA6862@1wt.eu> <20080414053943.GU9785@ZenIV.linux.org.uk> <20080413232441.e216a02c.akpm@linux-foundation.org> <4803ACE5.4020502@keyaccess.nl> <20080414133802.4535e4da.akpm@linux-foundation.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: viro@ZenIV.linux.org.uk, w@1wt.eu, david@lang.hm, sclark46@earthlink.net, johnpol@2ka.mipt.ru, rjw@sisk.pl, tilman@imap.cc, Valdis.Kletnieks@vt.edu, lkml@rtr.ca, davem@davemloft.net, jesper.juhl@gmail.com, yoshfuji@linux-ipv6.org, jeff@garzik.org, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, git@vger.kernel.org, netdev@vger.kernel.org To: Andrew Morton X-From: git-owner@vger.kernel.org Tue Apr 15 00:18:40 2008 connect(): Connection refused Return-path: Envelope-to: gcvg-git-2@gmane.org Received: from vger.kernel.org ([209.132.176.167]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1JlX0Z-0006Js-CU for gcvg-git-2@gmane.org; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 00:18:39 +0200 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S1752518AbYDNWRy (ORCPT ); Mon, 14 Apr 2008 18:17:54 -0400 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id S1752267AbYDNWRy (ORCPT ); Mon, 14 Apr 2008 18:17:54 -0400 Received: from smtpq2.groni1.gr.home.nl ([213.51.130.201]:44992 "EHLO smtpq2.groni1.gr.home.nl" rhost-flags-OK-OK-OK-OK) by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S1752020AbYDNWRx (ORCPT ); Mon, 14 Apr 2008 18:17:53 -0400 Received: from [213.51.130.188] (port=51696 helo=smtp3.groni1.gr.home.nl) by smtpq2.groni1.gr.home.nl with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1JlWxW-0007qg-Mm; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 00:15:30 +0200 Received: from cc334381-b.groni1.gr.home.nl ([82.73.12.33]:48671 helo=[192.168.0.3]) by smtp3.groni1.gr.home.nl with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1JlWxW-0003xx-45; Tue, 15 Apr 2008 00:15:30 +0200 User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.12 (X11/20080213) In-Reply-To: <20080414133802.4535e4da.akpm@linux-foundation.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Sender: git-owner@vger.kernel.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: X-Mailing-List: git@vger.kernel.org Archived-At: On 14-04-08 22:38, Andrew Morton wrote: > On Mon, 14 Apr 2008 21:13:41 +0200 > Rene Herman wrote: > >> Does that mean you're not going to take patches that align the right end of >> lines in comments? :-( > > erm, was that ":-(" supposed to be a ":-)"? The ":-(" was supposed to add to the implicitly obvious ":-)". That is, was indeed joking (Al mentioned them) but with a slightly serious undertone: > I don't like to merge patches which fix typos and spellos and grammaros > in comments, simply because I'd be buried in the things. I do take such > fixes for user-visible text (Documentation/, kerneldoc comments and > printks). > > Right-justification of comments would fall rather a long way below > spelling fixes. You, particularly, seem to be very good at picking up trivia. I've posted completely trivial patches from time to time for small things I encounter while looking at something else. Things at the "are people going to look funny at me for even bothering or..." level but you picking them up means it's still useful to post, so I sometimes do. Now, in fact, Linux as a _whole_ doesn't seem bad at accepting that kind of small janitorial stuff but I have been noticing some backlash to it as well. I'm not sure it's worse or better than historically, but the "checkpatch syndrome" certainly triggers more of it. Al specifically wanted more new eyes but the way to reward those new eyes is accepting their small changes. Al also specifically doesn't like those small changes when at the level of the automated and semi-brainless checkpatch level. I believe the janitorial work has been over-organized, both through the kernel-janitors and checkpatch since while these are very useful in guiding a newbie in _what_ to do they cause "automated" huge tree-wide trivia storms which people then don't react overly favourable to and the new eyes who did all that work of generating it all dim again... Frankly, the kernel really is fairly complex these days when starting at 0. Much more complex certainly than, say, back in 2.0 or 2.2 days and while Al's scenario of per-subsystem reviews might be good, I don't believe it's very realistic. Companies don't pay to have those done and for newbies it's generally too complex since understanding most parts of the kernel fully, requires understanding most of the rest kernel rather well also. So you get the really promising newbies? Yeah, that, or you don't get anyone and if some promising newbies are building up 137 part checkpatch inspired patchsets that don't help none. So, what am I saying (what _am_ I saying?!?) ... I seemed to observe somewhat of an internal contradiction in Al's message about new eyes and his dislike of the trivial stuff but the contradiction only exists if the dislike wouldn't be limited to these kinds of huge trivia storms. I believe it is, and I furthermore believe that yes, it's over-organization that causes many new eyes to focus on the brainless aspects. Now, do those new eyes have many other options when very few (to none) of the core crowd ever does things like answer question on the kernelnewbies list? From the established names, I only remember ever seeing Greg KH and Adrian Bunk there. And I'm _still_ pissed that noone would or could tell me what was wrong with the legacy CD-ROM driver I and Pekka Enberg were toying around with a while ago. Frankly, I care a whole lot less about a hundred sparse warning fixes. In short -- the kernel in it's current state is already quite complex and if new eyes are wanted they'll need to be coached more. I'm seeing very little of that. Rene.