From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Stephen Clark Subject: Re: Reporting bugs and bisection Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 08:41:38 -0400 Message-ID: <4805F402.1020603@earthlink.net> References: <47FEADCB.7070104@rtr.ca> <517f3f820804150254w491cdf85s28f1d15696db8d96@mail.gmail.com> <4804B5D5.4090404@davidnewall.com> <200804152251.51308.rjw@sisk.pl> <480565D3.6000100@davidnewall.com> Reply-To: sclark46@earthlink.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: David Newall , "Rafael J. Wysocki" , Michael Kerrisk , James Morris , Al Viro , Andrew Morton , Willy Tarreau , Evgeniy Polyakov , Tilman Schmidt , Valdis.Kletnieks@vt.edu, Mark Lord , David Miller , jesper.juhl@gmail.com, yoshfuji@linux-ipv6.org, jeff@garzik.org, linux-kernel , git@vger.kernel.org, netdev@vger.kernel.org To: david@lang.hm X-From: linux-kernel-owner+glk-linux-kernel-3=40m.gmane.org-S1762870AbYDPMmq@vger.kernel.org Wed Apr 16 14:43:51 2008 connect(): Connection refused Return-path: Envelope-to: glk-linux-kernel-3@gmane.org Received: from vger.kernel.org ([209.132.176.167]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1Jm6z8-0004Er-W0 for glk-linux-kernel-3@gmane.org; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 14:43:35 +0200 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S1762870AbYDPMmq (ORCPT ); Wed, 16 Apr 2008 08:42:46 -0400 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id S1757708AbYDPMmg (ORCPT ); Wed, 16 Apr 2008 08:42:36 -0400 Received: from elasmtp-junco.atl.sa.earthlink.net ([209.86.89.63]:46537 "EHLO elasmtp-junco.atl.sa.earthlink.net" rhost-flags-OK-OK-OK-OK) by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S1755678AbYDPMmf (ORCPT ); Wed, 16 Apr 2008 08:42:35 -0400 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=earthlink.net; b=nrsN4sZoGNm0h0isHuYHvoFPzA4/77uOw7SMTa27uISrhrW7rUsSZ8rdCEJbOYWe; h=Received:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:User-Agent:MIME-Version:To:CC:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [24.144.77.185] (helo=joker.seclark.com) by elasmtp-junco.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1Jm6xJ-0004w3-4m; Wed, 16 Apr 2008 08:41:41 -0400 User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.12 (X11/20080226) In-Reply-To: X-ELNK-Trace: a437fbc6971e80f61aa676d7e74259b7b3291a7d08dfec79cb627b4d525c59a20cfef712fb0894c2350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 24.144.77.185 Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Archived-At: david@lang.hm wrote: > On Wed, 16 Apr 2008, David Newall wrote: > >> Rafael J. Wysocki wrote: >>> Well, even if someone introduces bugs relatively frequently, but then >>> also >>> works with the reporters and fixes the bugs timely, it's about okay IMO. >>> >> This really is not okay. Even if bugs are fixed a version or two later, >> the impact those bugs have on users makes the system look bad and drives >> them away. We do not, I believe, want Linux to top the list for "most >> bugs". It's unprofessional, unreliable and quite undesirable. > > timely frequently means the code was merged in -rc1/2 and was fixed > before the final release of the same version. > > given the huge variety of hardware and workloads, it's just too easy for > there to be cases where any trade-off you make (code size, performance, > memory usage, common case definitions) can turn around and bite you. In > addition frequently hardware doesn't work quite the way the design specs > say that it should (completely ignoring the fact that many drivers are > reverse engineered). what's most important is that when a case shows up > it gets addressed promptly > > I'd rather have a developer/maintainer who introduces and fixed 100 bug, > but fixes them promptly, as opposed to one who only introduces one bug, > but refuses to consider fixing the code 'because they don't make > mistakes like that' (usadly a common attitude from people who produce > very good code much of the time) > > best of all is a developer/maintainer who writes very good code and is > willing to accept the fact that they make mistakes and fixes the code > promptly, but those people are extremely rare, and usually they emerge > from the pool of people who make more mistakes and fix them promptly, > which is an added reason I'm more tolerant of that group. > > David Lang > Having been a Linux user since the late 90's the problem I see is that developers decide to re-design stuff that is already working and then things that used to work don't work anymore. Libata is a good example. I had an older laptop that eventually got working again - but the old ide stuff wasn't studied enough to find out what had to be brought forward and supported in libata. Regards, Steve -- "They that give up essential liberty to obtain temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." (Ben Franklin) "The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases." (Thomas Jefferson)